Any advice for accepting a loss of national preeminence?

[sunnyside]

While my particularly liberal friends are fairly happy with the direction things are going (though they still aren't happy with the country and probably won't ever be), I'm dealing with a lot of depressing chatter from every other group. The sort of people who were(are) proud that America was(is) the greatest nation in the world. That includes some of the Democrats. But the reality is that the direction we're heading is towards mediocrity. I think most people agree on this, though they might disagree on why.

What occurs to me is that we've got a lot of people on here from other countries who seem to think their own countries are pretty cool. And some of them have to varying degrees had to deal with similar experiences. I mean the UK could easily make the claim that it was once the greatest nation in the world and now... Others may have never been vary important, but the point is that you guys seem to quite like them.

I guess I'm looking for silver linings here so I can get my friends to quit making our conversations so depressing (and maybe cheer myself up a little).

Input from Americans who find themselves feeling becoming more patriotic for some reason would be appreciated too.

[IanKennedy]

We were once great, however, we got there in a way that isn't something to be overly proud of i.e. military might. I don't think of that as a particularly good thing to be proud of. Thus I'm not the slightest bit upset by it's loss.

I'm more proud of our scientific and industrial heritage than our empire. I'll grant you that that was part of what allowed us to build the empire. But if you look at the number of inventions that come out of the UK over the years it's quite staggering. Our place in the world is still pretty good despite our changes. We're part of the G8 and on the security council of the UN. I'm happy with that. As a nation grows older it tends to realize that being number 1 isn't that important. People in the UK are far less concerned with our place in the world than they are in the US. It's a bit like growing up as a person, you stop worrying about the things you did as a child. A nation is pretty much the same.

Things change and nothing lasts for ever. Sorry if that's a little depressing, I certainly mean no offence by it.

[Teaos]

Speaking on behalf of New Zealand.

We have a population of about 4 mill. We passed over 1 million just after WWI.

We know we dont have the sconomical power or military power to dictate world events. But frankly we dont want to.

Also being an Island Nation far away from everyone we are usually quite happy to have everyone leave us alone. We play nice when we have to and like to be noticed for the good stuff we achive in terms of science and sport. But we generally are ery ahppy to be left to ourselves.

The thing is, we do hold quite a bit of repect because we do the right thing usaully. We have fought in more wars in the 20th century than everyone but the UK. But when we fight a war, its not with soilders, its with engineers and doctors. We used to laugh that we have no idea how to reallt fight a war. When the world was nuclear crazy in the cold war, New Zealand wasa the first 1st world nation to go nuclear free and we actually blockaided the harbour of our capital to prevent a American Warship entering our harbours since it wouldnt declear if it had nuclear weapons on board. American kicked us out of several prominent defense treaties, but our reputation went up with almost everyone else in the world. It wasnt the easy thing to do, but at the time it was the right thing.

Find something you can be proud of, education, science, sport, health care and run with it. Finland is world famos for their education system, a lot of good thing stem from that one aspect of their society, England has the NHS which is usually ranked #1 out of all the free health care services provided by first world nations. New Zealand has conservation and thus we get tourism and a lot of argro-bio reserch.

If I was America I would step down from its position as best at everything and focus on 1 or 2 things. Like the space programme, and let that be your position in the world.

[Graham Kennedy]

What occurs to me is that we've got a lot of people on here from other countries who seem to think their own countries are pretty cool. And some of them have to varying degrees had to deal with similar experiences. I mean the UK could easily make the claim that it was once the greatest nation in the world and now...

I'd generalise what the others have said and say that it really comes down to what you consider "greatness" to be. If your measure of greatness is the ability to boss others around, force your will on them, dictate international policies, etc, then you're really setting yourself up for a fall because in the end the world is too big for that. Various historical oddities have contrived to put 5% of the world's population in a position to dictate to the other 95%, but surely any rational person can see that such a state of affairs really can't last forever. Empires are expensive, and sooner or later the folks back home just get tired of paying for it.

My love of my own country isn't centered around that kind of thing. Sure it would be a pleasant fantasy to see a reborn "British Empire", though it's a rather silly idea. But I love the UK because... well, just because it's my place and I love most everything about it. The history, the culture, the weird mix of modern and almost medieval we have going on. All of it. Don't put your faith in preeminance, put it in the things about your country that are great whether it's preeminant or not.

[Atekimogus]

My advice is trying not to be "patriotic" in the first place. I don't trust patriots. The word reads like "I have stopped thinking for myself and we are just so much better than all the rest just because" to me.

Don't get me wrong. I love my country, I like the level of living standards we have, the social system, the standards of education etc. etc. and I simply cannot imagine living anywhere else, I love it here. I would never call myself a patriot and I am highly critical of everything "my" country does. You won't find me waving any flags or some of that sort of thing. It's the 21st century damnit.

In the end, what do you really care if what the world thinks of you? You like it there and think everything is ok with your country. Just be happy. Empires come and go and now it seems it's USA place in the row. They had a good run and may still continue to be number one for the rest of your lifetime and even if not, life continues even if you are not No1 anymore.

You put a man on the moon and that is your legacy. (Sad that you don't realize that since all the military spending, war on terror/drugs and all that bs which is ruining your country won't amount to more than a footnote in the history-books) Enough to be proud of imho, even though your motivation was more to one up the russkies instead of scientifc curiosity, but still it doesn't dimnish the accomplishment.

[sunnyside]

Thanks for the replies. I haven't replied because its not really a thing to debate, I've just been taking them in. But I think maybe I should comment on:

My advice is trying not to be "patriotic" in the first place. I don't trust patriots. The word reads like "I have stopped thinking for myself and we are just so much better than all the rest just because" to me.

I think this might be a point of difference between the US and most countries in the world. In most countries you're there essentially randomly. Your ancestors have just been there for ages.

America is largely, even today, a nation of immigrants. Maybe a given individual didn't choose to come there, but based on my interactions it seems most people at least have a grandparents that they knew that chose to come over. They had their reasons for wanting to come here out of everywhere on the planet, and often they pass down a sort of patriotism based on gratitude (and reinforcing the decision of the immigrant to come here). And even if they didn't know their immigrant ancestor every American is descended from some situation kind of like that (barring certain minority groups that are understandably much less patriotic).

So all in all I think patriotism over here is a rather different, and much more prominent, thing. Also unlike some countries I don't think racist overtones get mixed in so much.

Beyond that I think there's an effect rather like how locals turn into fans if their team is suddenly a big winner.

[Teaos]

My County is 200 years younger than America yet we dont have these feeling of patriotism, nor does Australia by in large. We're happy when the nation sports team wins or when we do well at the Olympics, but I'd guess maybe 1/100 people own a flag and 1/100 of them have a flag pole of any sort.

[Tsukiyumi]

...I'd guess maybe 1/100 people own a flag and 1/100 of them have a flag pole of any sort.

Whereas I fly the stars and stripes at every logical opportunity. My patriotism is more of a "Well, they slaughtered my people and stole our land; it had damn well better be worth it."

[Tholian_Avenger]

I'm patriotic for the country in the sense that I love Humanity but hate people. I think that bit about being the change you want to see in the world is near the mark. Define your personal goals, priorities, and objectives and pursue them. Realize personal satisfaction and your surroundings will begin to improve. I hear a lot of shit about those <= 25yo but I don't have enough contact with those youngsters to say. A lot of the charges I hear leveled at them were thrown at the 35-25yo generation. I don't owe those youngsters anything, but I think it's best to guide them in their education.

The economy and society is so structurally flawed that we can't oppose it directly, only subtly. Encouraging free thinking, professionalism, health awareness, and education is that subtle way. I've been listening to George Carlin, Bill Burr, and Christopher Hitchens on youtube lately. There is a component I'm leaving out, I'm sure of it, but that's my advice. America still has a lot going for it, and a lot of the "up-and-comer countries" have a lot of glaring fundamental problems. So you could at least say we are declining less than everyone else.

[McAvoy]

Honestly, this feel good feeling of 'Merica is new. This whole patriotic feeling isn't quite the same as it was 100 years ago.

One thing I have observed is the general feeling that many people want to stay with what they have had instead of change.

This doom and gloom can easily be changed for the better if people stop blaming each other and get rid of the whole "I am voting against" as opposed to "I am voting for." Brand loyalty doesn't help either. How many people voted for Romney just because he was a Republican and nothing else?

[sunnyside]

Honestly, this feel good feeling of 'Merica is new. This whole patriotic feeling isn't quite the same as it was 100 years ago.

I suppose it could be different, I don't think we really made the trasition from upstarts to a major power until near the end of the eighteenth century, and I don't think we could make claims to preeminence until after World War II, possibly not until Apollo 11 which I suppose wasn't all that long ago.

However patriotism seemed quite strong in our early years as a nation (actually without that we probably wouldn't have survived as a nation).

My County is 200 years younger than America yet we dont have these feeling of patriotism, nor does Australia by in large. We're happy when the nation sports team wins or when we do well at the Olympics, but I'd guess maybe 1/100 people own a flag and 1/100 of them have a flag pole of any sort.

Out of curiosity how much do New Zealanders think of themselves as something different as opposed to British who have been writing their own laws for sixty years or so. Isn't the British Queen still technically your monarch?

As for flags here it varies greatly. There probably aren't so many to be found privately owned deep within the urban cores, but ownership is pretty ubiquitous in suburban and rural areas, and a fair number are flown outside. Also around where I am car dealerships that sell American cars (and some that don't) have taken to putting up massive flags and poles that are fairly prominent in the local skyline.

Whereas I fly the stars and stripes at every logical opportunity. My patriotism is more of a "Well, they slaughtered my people and stole our land; it had damn well better be worth it."

Interesting. Well, I hope its some consolation that you're represented in a positive light in modern movies and get some special bonus rights if you're into hunting or certain types of collecting.

I'm patriotic for the country in the sense that I love Humanity but hate people. I think that bit about being the change you want to see in the world is near the mark. Define your personal goals, priorities, and objectives and pursue them. Realize personal satisfaction and your surroundings will begin to improve.

I suppose that could be patriotic in that American patriotism can apply to support of American values/ the American way in contrast to nationalism.

I suppose that has some advantage in being able to exist in the absence of national preeminence.

[Captain Seafort]

Isn't the British Queen still technically your monarch?

Technically the Kiwis' head of state is the Queen of New Zealand, who is a different legal entity from the Queen of the United Kingdom despite being the same individual.

[Teaos]

Lgally the Queen is the head of State, but its purely ceremonial.

We by in large recognise our British heritage, but New Zealand is so multi Cultural now with massive, native, India and Asian populations that the British feel is wearing away.

[McAvoy]

Sunnyside,

The US was for all intents and purpose the most powerful nation after WW1. Realistically speaking, the US was fully capable of taking on any nation or group of them at once. The US wasn't nearly bankrupt like the other nations in Europe was. Russia was still having issues at this time. France and Britain were spent. Japan while a threat probably would lose a war.

Naturally, the US wasn't nearly as dominant as it would be in WW2. However it wasn't recognized as such though there were murmurs about it between the wars by higher ups in many nations

No... the whole Patriotism that is going on is new.

[Tsukiyumi]

Interesting. Well, I hope its some consolation that you're represented in a positive light in modern movies...

Even I think that's a bunch of BS. We had our positives and negatives just like any race. The Comanche (my people), for example, had no problem taking women and children as slaves in battle, though they were treated much better on average than African slaves by most white landowners.

I fly the banner because my grandfather, and great grandfather fought for this country in two world wars, and my other great grandfather was one of the first Native American Texas Rangers. This is still our land, we just share it with a bunch of overweight white folks now.