Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

Post by Mikey »

Tyyr wrote:Part of the reason they don't retire is to avoid the problem of potentially having two popes and two opinions on an issue. Why that's a problem I don't really know seeing as we've got how many presidents still kicking? Let's not kid ourselves, the Pope isn't divinely appointed, the guy's elected. So what's the problem with just focusing on the sitting Pope?
That's most definitely an issue, but it's not one of it being unclear as to who's in office and who's not. It's not even an issue of divine appointment vs. mundane election; it's an issue of how the constituency sees the authority of pope, even a pope emeritus. One would hope that if Benny has decided to retire voluntarily, then he would likewise remember that before opening his mouth in opposition to any new pontiff. If he does say something, however, it doesn't matter if he has the authority to make pronouncements or not. What matters is that millions and millions of Catholics worldwide perceive his words to have divine weight - the weight of someone who was, in their opinion, chosen and qualified to be the pontiff.
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Captain Seafort wrote:The electoral college isn't divinely inspired. The College of Cardinals is (at least in theory). The US President also isn't God's representative on Earth.
If the Papacy is 100% divinely inspired I can get you a great deal on St. Peter's Basillica, slightly used. It's political, hell read the article. The don't want a Pope from a superpower. Umm, ok, Chapter and Verse me that one. Right there you've got a political concern influencing the selection process. Hell, go to Benedict's selection, again, not a concern about nailing God's chosen one but picking someone who won't rock the boat following John Paul so we can transition off him and into someone else. There's a lot of worldly concerns being advanced in Pope selection.

Not suggesting the guy isn't pious, or qualified, or even one of the most in touch with God people in the church but to me it seems like there's as much politics as praying going on.
Genuine question, If he's God's representative on Earth how can he resign? Surely God would have to fire him?
God's been firing them for the couple centuries, Benedict just decided to get out before he was forced out.
One would hope that if Benny has decided to retire voluntarily, then he would likewise remember that before opening his mouth in opposition to any new pontiff.
From what I've heard of the guy I think he's astute enough that once he leaves Vatican City you're not going to hear a word out of him.
If he does say something, however, it doesn't matter if he has the authority to make pronouncements or not. What matters is that millions and millions of Catholics worldwide perceive his words to have divine weight - the weight of someone who was, in their opinion, chosen and qualified to be the pontiff.
I'm not Catholic but just how seriously do Catholic's take the Pope? He's there, he's the figurehead of the religion, but how many Catholics today are saying, "Well the Pope said X so that's the way it's gotta be."
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Tyyr wrote:From what I've heard of the guy I think he's astute enough that once he leaves Vatican City you're not going to hear a word out of him.
I'm led to believe that too; I meant in a more general sense that if any retiring pontiff had that sort of horse sense, the whole issue would be moot.
Tyyr wrote:I'm not Catholic but just how seriously do Catholic's take the Pope? He's there, he's the figurehead of the religion, but how many Catholics today are saying, "Well the Pope said X so that's the way it's gotta be."
You'd be very surprised. My wife is Byzantine Catholic, which church follows a completely separate heirarchy from just under the pope on down and in general follows a more Eastern Orthodox-type view than Roman Catholicism - and even her church considers the pope not to be a figurehead or temporal leader but a true embodiment of the Church. To give it a more tangible description, most Catholics (at least, ones that have any opinion on the matter at all) consider the pope to be somewhere in the range of "anointed head of the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and arbiter of all theological and catechistic matters" to "the mouth through which G-d speaks." In other words, as to your question - every single Catholic that I've ever met who actually cares about either belief or ritual (and some who don't) do actually say, "The Pope said X, so that's most definitely the way it's gotta be."
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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I think the main issue with retirement is it sets a precident. Popes cant always make the popular choice. So if they can be seen to retire, a Pope could be forced out for making the hard calls.
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Teaos wrote:I think the main issue with retirement is it sets a precident. Popes cant always make the popular choice. So if they can be seen to retire, a Pope could be forced out for making the hard calls.
I don't think one can be forced out. As I understand it (and yes, I may be wrong) I don't believe that there is any process for impeachment nor any procedure for removal from office even one were to be impeached. I think there are only two ways out - to retire voluntarily and unconstrained, or to go paws up.
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Oh yeah it has to be their choice, but I dont think its hard to imagin Popes being pressures to leave office by other cardinals and them saying its their own choice.
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Teaos wrote:Oh yeah it has to be their choice, but I dont think its hard to imagin Popes being pressures to leave office by other cardinals and them saying its their own choice.
IDK, these types usually take their oaths pretty seriously... don't they have to swear that they were unconstrained to retire?
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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I think the main issue with retirement is it sets a precident. Popes cant always make the popular choice. So if they can be seen to retire, a Pope could be forced out for making the hard calls.
Popes have retired before, this isn't really precedent setting. Besides, I'd like to think that a Pope has sort of the ultimate piss off line, "I answer to God and if he doesn't like the job I'm doing he can strike me dead."
You'd be very surprised.
I guess I would. I can't really get passed the worldly concerns that go with electing a Pontiff. God doesn't really work through a committee. Moses didn't get elected, God said "He's the guy and if you don't like it I can always open up a giant chasm under your entire family's encampment so we can discuss how I'm God and you're not in person."
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Tyyr wrote:
I think the main issue with retirement is it sets a precident. Popes cant always make the popular choice. So if they can be seen to retire, a Pope could be forced out for making the hard calls.
Popes have retired before, this isn't really precedent setting. Besides, I'd like to think that a Pope has sort of the ultimate piss off line, "I answer to God and if he doesn't like the job I'm doing he can strike me dead."
No Pope has resigned in some 600 years though (around the early 1400's I believe). So it is kind of a big deal (not to me). If this one retires, won't there be more pressure for future one's to do as as they age and grow infirm? But if he's supposed to be speaking for God, shouldn't God make sure he's well enough to carry out his job?

Is there a minimum age requirement for the position of Pope?
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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No, but Pope's have resigned before. It's not unprecedented.

And hell, if the Pope thinks he can't do the job anymore why shouldn't he step down?
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Tyyr wrote:I'd like to think that a Pope has sort of the ultimate piss off line, "I answer to God and if he doesn't like the job I'm doing he can strike me dead."
Now I can't get out of my head the scene of the priest ending his round of golf in Caddyshack.
Tyyr wrote:I guess I would. I can't really get passed the worldly concerns that go with electing a Pontiff. God doesn't really work through a committee. Moses didn't get elected, God said "He's the guy and if you don't like it I can always open up a giant chasm under your entire family's encampment so we can discuss how I'm God and you're not in person."
I don't disagree with you; but we're discussing what the laity of the Catholic Church thinks, not what you or I think. Remember that if someone believes something (I'm not excepting myself,) he can interpret the extant facts to support that belief. Is the head of your theological organization elected by men rather than tangibly appointed by G-d? No problem, we'll just say that the men who elected him were divinely inspired to do so. No precedent for that? Sure there is, Moses was a mouthpiece for G-d, and was even punished terribly for misinterpreting one tiny unimportant bit of directions. See where this can go?
Tinadrin Chelnor wrote:If this one retires, won't there be more pressure for future one's to do as as they age and grow infirm? But if he's supposed to be speaking for God, shouldn't God make sure he's well enough to carry out his job?
I doubt there will be much of a change in the impetus for future pontiffs to retire. Remember that Benedict was chosen even at his advanced age because he was a temporary stopgap after one of the more dynamic popes that the Church has had in a long time. Nobody let JP II think of retiring, no matter how sick he was, because of the things he accomplished. As far as G-d making sure he's well enough, it could also be claimed that the decision to retire or not to do so is inspired by G-d; remember that Catholics believe that the pope is the top rung among humanity on the ladder to the divine.
Tinadrin Chelnor wrote:Is there a minimum age requirement for the position of Pope?
I don't know; but generally popes are only selected from those priests who have moved well up the Church heirarchy, which tends to take some time.
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Tinadrin Chelnor wrote:
Tyyr wrote:
I think the main issue with retirement is it sets a precident. Popes cant always make the popular choice. So if they can be seen to retire, a Pope could be forced out for making the hard calls.
Popes have retired before, this isn't really precedent setting. Besides, I'd like to think that a Pope has sort of the ultimate piss off line, "I answer to God and if he doesn't like the job I'm doing he can strike me dead."
No Pope has resigned in some 600 years though (around the early 1400's I believe). So it is kind of a big deal (not to me). If this one retires, won't there be more pressure for future one's to do as as they age and grow infirm? But if he's supposed to be speaking for God, shouldn't God make sure he's well enough to carry out his job?
Well if the Pope is indeed chosen by and speaking for God, his retirement can actually fit that narrative quite well. He was chosen to do a specific task for a specific time (presumably transition the church/placehold after John Paul II) and God considers his task complete and is allowing him to gracefully retire rather than letting age and death take him like they usually do people in his position.
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Just watched a report on Faux News about the election of a new pope. They were trying to subtly say we cant have a black ine since we have Obama running the most powerful country in the world so there cant be one running the biggest religion. They were throwing their weight behind Timothy Dolan who is well regarded dispite blatant cover ups of sexual abuse cases... and you know, white.
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI to resign

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Dolan's a long shot, at best. The Vatican does not appear that it's interested in an American pope.
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