Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

In the real world
User avatar
Tholian_Avenger
Lieutenant jg
Lieutenant jg
Posts: 356
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:51 am
Location: Here, just past there.

Re: Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

Post by Tholian_Avenger »

Tsukiyumi wrote:You know what's way more easily accessible than firearms? Saltpeter, charcoal and sulfur. Along with nails and pvc pipe. In an enclosed space, that would be far more dangerous than a 9mm handgun.
I have never seen saltpeter in person.
6 Star Admiral of the Loyal Water Buffaloes and Honorable Turtles
stitch626
2 Star Admiral
2 Star Admiral
Posts: 9585
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:57 pm
Location: NY
Contact:

Re: Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

Post by stitch626 »

Praeothmin wrote:
Tsukiyumi wrote:You know what's way more easily accessible than firearms? Saltpeter, charcoal and sulfur. Along with nails and pvc pipe. In an enclosed space, that would be far more dangerous than a 9mm handgun.
Quick question here:
How many gunnings in the last ten years in the US were perpetrated using those objects?
Was Columbine?
Were the Dark Knight movie house killings?
Was this one?
You asked a very poorly worded (or stupid if wording was intentional) question. No "gunnings" we done with such objects because you can't use explosives to gun people down.


The better question would be how many significant crimes have been committed using such objects. Don't know the answer to that one, though we did have 2 pretty significant ones in the 90s.
No trees were killed in transmission of this message. However, some electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

Post by Captain Seafort »

stitch626 wrote:The better question would be how many significant crimes have been committed using such objects. Don't know the answer to that one, though we did have 2 pretty significant ones in the 90s.
The ideal solution would be to compare the number of individuals killed by IEDs with the number of individuals killed by firearms.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
stitch626
2 Star Admiral
2 Star Admiral
Posts: 9585
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:57 pm
Location: NY
Contact:

Re: Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

Post by stitch626 »

Captain Seafort wrote:
stitch626 wrote:The better question would be how many significant crimes have been committed using such objects. Don't know the answer to that one, though we did have 2 pretty significant ones in the 90s.
The ideal solution would be to compare the number of individuals killed by IEDs with the number of individuals killed by firearms.
Better would be the ratio of deaths per item (deaths per gun crime vs deaths per explosive crime). That would cover variances in availability and preference.


However, the highest death rate for a crime is from distracted driving. Beats out firearms easily.
No trees were killed in transmission of this message. However, some electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

Re: Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

Post by Tyyr »

How many criminals were actually responsible for the gunnings that happened in the US in the last 10 years, such as Columbine, and this latest one, as opposed to "law-abiding citizens" who just went crazy?
Actually incidents like this aren't even a statistical blip in murders every year. So using this a your basis for gun control laws is like crafting your traffic laws around super cars. They are so rare as to make trying to specifically combat them largely pointless.

As for Coloumbine and the Dark Knight guy, both of those actually included IEDs. In the case of Columbine they were too low tech to work and the DK guy didn't bring them with him just leaving them at his house.
Self defence? Is law enforcement that ineffectual that the population must become vigilantes to be safe?
Well let me ask you this. In the middle of the night I hear someone bashing down my front door. What's going to guarantee my family's safety? The police who even in an emergency can have response times measured in minutes and that's after I grab my phone and make a call, or my 12 gauge shotgun that I can get to in about ten seconds? It's not a matter of law enforcement being ineffectual, it's about there being certain unavoidable issues with response times in emergency situations. What if most of the local officers on patrol were pulled away to deal with a drug bust? Maybe the guys nearest me got out of his car to get a cup of coffee. Maybe there's just the fact that the city I live in covers a land area the size of many European counties. Unless you get incredibly lucky and a cop is sitting right around the corner there is no way they are going to be on the scene in under sixty seconds not with the issues of contacting emergency services, communicating the situation, the dispatcher contacting the officers, and then those officers moving towards the scene. Well in 60 seconds some asshole desperate for drug money or hopped up on them, or just some psycho looking for a thrill can do more damage to my family than I'm willing to tolerate. So I have equipped myself with a reliable and effective weapon that I am well versed in its operation to ensure that during the time after I realize the shit has hit the fan and the three to five minutes later when the cops arrive my family will be safe.

I view having a firearm to deal with potentially violent situations coming to my home the same way I do in having an evacuation plan to get out of it if it's on fire. Would you just sit in your house as it burns waiting for the firemen to come save you or do you take responsibility for your own life and get you and yours out? Well, same thing to me. I'm not going to sit behind a hollow wooden bedroom door with a lock my six year old can jimmy open or just bang open hoping that the guy who was already desperate enough to enter an occupied home will leave us be while I wait for the police to come deal with him.
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

Post by Captain Seafort »

Tyyr wrote:As for Coloumbine and the Dark Knight guy, both of those actually included IEDs. In the case of Columbine they were too low tech to work and the DK guy didn't bring them with him just leaving them at his house.
i.e. neither of them included IEDs.
Well let me ask you this. In the middle of the night I hear someone bashing down my front door. What's going to guarantee my family's safety? The police who even in an emergency can have response times measured in minutes and that's after I grab my phone and make a call, or my 12 gauge shotgun that I can get to in about ten seconds?
The plod, with a locked bathroom door as an interim measure.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

Re: Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

Post by Tyyr »

Captain Seafort wrote:i.e. neither of them included IEDs.
The Columbine kids made crappy IEDs that didn't work. They were still present on the school grounds. They just didn't make very good ones.
The plod, with a locked bathroom door as an interim measure.
Good luck with that.
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

Post by Captain Seafort »

Tyyr wrote:The Columbine kids made crappy IEDs that didn't work. They were still present on the school grounds. They just didn't make very good ones.
Which was half the point I was making earlier -
Good luck with that.
My plan: hide, keep shtum, and let the crooks nick what they want. I'm safe, my family is safe. If the plod turn up in time to nick the crooks that's a bonus.

Your plan: start shooting and hope you can hit them and not your family while you're still waking up, scared, and hyper with adrenaline, while the crook or crooks are probably also scared and hyper, but awake, possibly outnumber you, possibly outgun you and have a specific offensive objective in mind while you've only got the vague defensive objective of protecting your family. Best case scenario is that they see or hear you coming and run. Worst case scenario is that everyone starts shooting and you, and your entire family get carried out the next day in body bags. You want to roll those dice? Be my guest, but make sure you do it somewhere a very long way away from me or anyone I care about.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

Re: Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

Post by Tyyr »

First off, your car is in the driveway or parked outside. They more than likely know that the house is occupied and intend to enter it anyways. Those aren't the kind of criminals who are going to just grab a DVD player or TV and run. Those guys don't come to houses with people in them. The kind who invade an occupied home are more than likely not going to care to leave you alone or worst case, leave witnesses. Hell, there's a decent chance they're not even after your stuff if they invade an occupied home but instead are after you and your family.

There aren't a lot of places in your average home big enough to hide in, much less hide an entire family. I could search my house in about a minute flat and hit every place in it that a single person could hide, much less my entire family. Those hiding places are also secured with hollow wooden doors, the kind you can break through with next to no trouble at all and that's if they have a lock on them that isn't easily jimmied which most I've seen lately don't as they're interior doors.

So your entire plan is to hide, which is pretty close to impossible to do, from men who are willing to invade your home when they know you're in it, and wait for the police to show up with nothing but a door that a six year old could get open between you and these men.
My plan: hide, keep shtum, and let the crooks nick what they want. I'm safe, my family is safe. If the plod turn up in time to nick the crooks that's a bonus.
Again, if someone is willing to invade your house when they know you're inside it you are not safe crouched in your walk in closet. You are sort of the exact opposite of safe. You are actually in more danger than you likely ever be in your entire life.
Your plan: start shooting and hope you can hit them and not your family while you're still waking up, scared, and hyper with adrenaline, while the crook or crooks are probably also scared and hyper, but awake, possibly outnumber you, possibly outgun you and have a specific offensive objective in mind while you've only got the vague defensive objective of protecting your family. Best case scenario is that they see or hear you coming and run. Worst case scenario is that everyone starts shooting and you, and your entire family get carried out the next day in body bags. You want to roll those dice? Be my guest, but make sure you do it somewhere a very long way away from me or anyone I care about.
Maybe outnumber me, maybe not. Maybe are armed, maybe not. Same can be said of your plan but your plan is trusting in the decency of men who have invaded your home to leave you alone. They have a vague offensive objective, break into my house either to take something valuable, or harm those of us inside. They don't know exactly where anyone is in my house, I know exactly where they are and where my family is. I don't have a vague defensive objective. I have a very clear one. And here's the key, at the end of the night I have a chance against someone invading my home with intent to harm me. Hiding in a closet and hoping that the guys invading will just not bother trying to open a door? Explain to me again how you're not rolling dice with your family's safety.
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

Post by Captain Seafort »

Tyyr wrote:First off, your car is in the driveway or parked outside. They more than likely know that the house is occupied and intend to enter it anyways. Those aren't the kind of criminals who are going to just grab a DVD player or TV and run. Those guys don't come to houses with people in them.
No - they're likely to empty the place into a van, and they're likely to respond violently to anyone who gets in their way.
There aren't a lot of places in your average home big enough to hide in, much less hide an entire family. I could search my house in about a minute flat and hit every place in it that a single person could hide, much less my entire family. Those hiding places are also secured with hollow wooden doors, the kind you can break through with next to no trouble at all and that's if they have a lock on them that isn't easily jimmied which most I've seen lately don't as they're interior doors.
So get a decent door, for the bathroom (i.e. where you're very unlikely to store anything of value) at least.
Maybe outnumber me, maybe not. Maybe are armed, maybe not.
And you're willing to gamble your life and your family's lives on a maybe?
Same can be said of your plan but your plan is trusting in the decency of men who have invaded your home to leave you alone.
No, I'm trusting in basic human nature - maximum gain for minimum risk. No one getting in the way? There goes the TV, computer, and anything else of value into the back of the van outside thank you very much. Someone tries to get in the way and it turns into the OK Corral. Sure there's the occasional crook whose going to search the house looking for a fight, but they're so extraordinarily rare as to be discounted for the purposes of devising SOPs in the event of a burglary. Crooks willing to use extreme violence if you look at the cross-eyed are far more common, but the solution to that is, as I've said, to stay out of the fucking way.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
User avatar
Deepcrush
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 18917
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:15 pm
Location: Arnold, Maryland, USA

Re: Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

Post by Deepcrush »

As Tyyr pretty well summed it up, the "cower and beg" plan is largely pointless as we see in every single mass shooting... in history. The idea of allowing our entire country to fall to such an extreme of cowardice just isn't possible. At least currently.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

Post by Captain Seafort »

Deepcrush wrote:As Tyyr pretty well summed it up, the "cower and beg" plan is largely pointless as we see in every single mass shooting... in history.
Neither Tyyr nor I said a single word about mass shootings. In that situation there's a far better solution, that isn't available in the event of a burglary - run.
The idea of allowing our entire country to fall to such an extreme of cowardice just isn't possible.
Cowardice, eh? If that's the price for having a working brain, then fair enough.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
User avatar
Deepcrush
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 18917
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:15 pm
Location: Arnold, Maryland, USA

Re: Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

Post by Deepcrush »

Captain Seafort wrote:Neither Tyyr nor I said a single word about mass shootings. In that situation there's a far better solution, that isn't available in the event of a burglary - run.
So your plan is to run and hope things work out for the best and that the criminals don't plan to commit a crime? Lovely.
Captain Seafort wrote:Cowardice, eh? If that's the price for having a working brain, then fair enough.
You call begging for your life rather then having the ability to defend your life "working" brain? No wonder you can't hold an honest conversation.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

Post by Captain Seafort »

Deepcrush wrote:So your plan is to run and hope things work out for the best and that the criminals don't plan to commit a crime?
Crime prevention isn't my job - it's the cops job. My job is self-preservation.
You call begging for your life rather then having the ability to defend your life "working" brain?
I call the ability to a) recognise how to deal with a situation without needlessly and dangerously escalating it and b) not being a retarded pillock who thinks he's John McClane having a working brain.
No wonder you can't hold an honest conversation.
:lol:
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
User avatar
Deepcrush
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 18917
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:15 pm
Location: Arnold, Maryland, USA

Re: Shooting at small town elementry school in Conneticut

Post by Deepcrush »

Captain Seafort wrote:Crime prevention isn't my job - it's the cops job. My job is self-preservation.
While crime prevention is my job, that aside. Self preservation is a lot easier for me if my house is the one that people know better then to break into.
Captain Seafort wrote:I call the ability to a) recognise how to deal with a situation without needlessly and dangerously escalating it and b) not being a retarded pillock who thinks he's John McClane having a working brain.
I'll admit I'm not even a little sure what a pillock is, maybe the British version of nigger or such. As to being John McClane, I don't recall ever saying it was the plan to race up against as many people as I could find as start out a gun fight.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
Post Reply