Two police officers shot dead in Manchester

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Two police officers shot dead in Manchester

Postby Graham Kennedy » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:47 pm

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Two unarmed female police officers have been killed in a gun and grenade attack in Greater Manchester, which led to the arrest of a wanted man.

PC Nicola Hughes, 23, and PC Fiona Bone, 32, had been investigating a burglary in Mottram, Tameside. Dale Cregan, 29, has been arrested in connection with the officers' deaths and two previous murders. Greater Manchester Police Chief Constable Sir Peter Fahy said it was one of the force's "darkest days".

Mr Cregan was arrested when he walked into Hyde police station a short time after the incident. A witness at the scene in Abbey Gardens reported hearing 13 gunshots and an explosion shortly before 11:00 BST. Sir Peter said someone had made a call alleging a burglary had been committed and when the officers arrived they were attacked with a gun and a grenade.


Hate things like this. :(
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Re: Two police officers shot dead in Manchester

Postby Deepcrush » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:09 pm

Why were unarmed police officers sent into an active crime site in the first place? They should have at least had an armed escort to clear the site prior to entry.
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Re: Two police officers shot dead in Manchester

Postby IanKennedy » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:19 pm

90% of British police are unarmed, then again so our 90% of our criminals.
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Re: Two police officers shot dead in Manchester

Postby Graham Kennedy » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:29 pm

Deepcrush wrote:Why were unarmed police officers sent into an active crime site in the first place? They should have at least had an armed escort to clear the site prior to entry.

Armed officers wouldn't be sent to respond to a crime unless there was some indication that weapons were involved.
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Re: Two police officers shot dead in Manchester

Postby kostmayer » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:48 pm

Early reports are that the shooter was responsible for the call the Officers were responding to.

Incidents like this are happily rare over here, and make me grateful for the thankless job Police Officers do. They get a lot of stick from the public, admittedly often deserved, but its not a job I'd do for anything.
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Re: Two police officers shot dead in Manchester

Postby Deepcrush » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:28 pm

IanKennedy wrote:90% of British police are unarmed, then again so our 90% of our criminals.


There should still have been someone there to clear the area first. Sending in defenseless officers without escort even if just for the first few moments is simply incompetent. Their lives could have been saved by a five minute walk through.
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Re: Two police officers shot dead in Manchester

Postby Deepcrush » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:31 pm

GrahamKennedy wrote:
Deepcrush wrote:Why were unarmed police officers sent into an active crime site in the first place? They should have at least had an armed escort to clear the site prior to entry.

Armed officers wouldn't be sent to respond to a crime unless there was some indication that weapons were involved.


The most common weapons used in crimes are household items. Someone breaking into a home then having to use force to get away will find a weapon of some kind. While it's not likely, I still hope that their CO has learned something from this. Otherwise those poor officers died for nothing.
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Re: Two police officers shot dead in Manchester

Postby kostmayer » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:40 pm

Deepcrush wrote:The most common weapons used in crimes are household items. Someone breaking into a home then having to use force to get away will find a weapon of some kind. While it's not likely, I still hope that their CO has learned something from this. Otherwise those poor officers died for nothing.


I'm curious as to what you think their CO should have done differently? The Officers were doing their job, responding to a 999 call. Whilst these (very rare) incidents are tragic, we are nowhere near the point where Officers have to be armed to go about their regular duties.
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Re: Two police officers shot dead in Manchester

Postby Graham Kennedy » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:32 pm

Deepcrush wrote:The most common weapons used in crimes are household items. Someone breaking into a home then having to use force to get away will find a weapon of some kind. While it's not likely, I still hope that their CO has learned something from this. Otherwise those poor officers died for nothing.

Ordinary street officers would carry sticks, pepper spray and tasers; more than enough to deal with household items. This guy had a gun and grenade.

The vast majority of burglars wouldn't be armed and when confronted would simply run. If cornered most of them just give up, or try fisticuffs. Going armed to burglarise a home is... well I don't have statistics, but it's extremely rare.

But that's not what this is. The guy was already on the run for a double murder - he was on the UK's most wanted list for the last month or so. The news is saying that he made the call to the cops, apparently deliberately intending to lure them into an ambush. After which he simply walked into a police station and surrendered. God knows what his motive was, but it wasn't a burglary gone wrong.

And if cops were going to go armed to all call outs then all cops would have to be armed. The politicians don't want that, the public don't want that, and even the large majority of the police don't want it.
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Re: Two police officers shot dead in Manchester

Postby Tsukiyumi » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:20 pm

Wow, where did he get a grenade over there? Was it a homemade bomb or an actual grenade?
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Re: Two police officers shot dead in Manchester

Postby Graham Kennedy » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:04 am

Apparently he used a grenade in his previous murder. Somebody caught part of that on a camera, you can see it in this clip. I don't know what he used, but he looks to be pulling a pin and throwing it. Looks like a real grenade, though lord knows where he got them. Somebody bringing something they shouldn't home from Afghanistan maybe?
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Re: Two police officers shot dead in Manchester

Postby Deepcrush » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:02 pm

kostmayer wrote:I'm curious as to what you think their CO should have done differently? The Officers were doing their job, responding to a 999 call. Whilst these (very rare) incidents are tragic, we are nowhere near the point where Officers have to be armed to go about their regular duties.


He should have done exactly what I already stated. When you have an active crime site, you don't send in defenseless personnel to look it over until you have secured the site. That's the job of armed officers. If they had been on site for five minutes they could have saved the lives of those two officers. Saying its "rare" that officers die pointless deaths doesn't in any way justify it happening when it can be prevented. Outside of police in the US assigned to major cities, most will never even have to draw their firearms let alone fire them. They won't be shot at either. However they are still trained to use a firearm and equipped with body armor.

GrahamKennedy wrote:Ordinary street officers would carry sticks, pepper spray and tasers; more than enough to deal with household items. This guy had a gun and grenade.


So then two officers in body armor and with guns of their own would have fared better as they would have been equipped to handle the situation.

GrahamKennedy wrote:The vast majority of burglars wouldn't be armed and when confronted would simply run. If cornered most of them just give up, or try fisticuffs. Going armed to burglarise a home is... well I don't have statistics, but it's extremely rare.

But that's not what this is. The guy was already on the run for a double murder - he was on the UK's most wanted list for the last month or so. The news is saying that he made the call to the cops, apparently deliberately intending to lure them into an ambush. After which he simply walked into a police station and surrendered. God knows what his motive was, but it wasn't a burglary gone wrong.


So in other words, this CO sent his officers into an unknown danger and they died for it.

GrahamKennedy wrote:And if cops were going to go armed to all call outs then all cops would have to be armed. The politicians don't want that, the public don't want that, and even the large majority of the police don't want it.


Why would they all have to be armed? Even in the US we have unarmed officers. First a team of armed officers makes sure the area is secure, then the unarmed team takes over. Again its a matter of minutes worth of their time.

GrahamKennedy wrote:Apparently he used a grenade in his previous murder. Somebody caught part of that on a camera, you can see it in this clip. I don't know what he used, but he looks to be pulling a pin and throwing it. Looks like a real grenade, though lord knows where he got them. Somebody bringing something they shouldn't home from Afghanistan maybe?


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Re: Two police officers shot dead in Manchester

Postby Teaos » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:08 pm

Why would they all have to be armed? Even in the US we have unarmed officers. First a team of armed officers makes sure the area is secure, then the unarmed team takes over. Again its a matter of minutes worth of their time.


I think you are grossly over estimating the amount of police officers available. You are essentially doubling the amount of personal required for what was a standard burglary.
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Re: Two police officers shot dead in Manchester

Postby Tinadrin Chelnor » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:33 pm

Indeed. I live in a town of ~35,000 people, 20 miles from London. Our local police station closed down several years ago, and now the police have to come from a station 5-8 miles away. We don't even have sufficient unarmed police, let alone armed officers.

And the CO did his job, exactly as he should. It is standard procedure for a burglary to send unarmed officers, armed officers are only sent if armed suspects are reported or suspected, as has already been stated. The CO can't just decide to start arming officers, that is a top-level decision, which I assume is up to the Home Secretary, but I may be wrong on that count.
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