PRISM

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PRISM

Postby Tyyr » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:24 pm

Welcome to the Surveillance State

PRISM is officially a thing. The NSA and the White House aren't attempting to deny it exists, just that it's not quite what it's made out to be or that it's necessary. What is it? The NSA's attempt to get access to every electronic communication you have ever had. Oh, but don't worry, it's totally cool, they ensure there's a 51% chance the individual they start to really look hard at is a foreign national. After they've already collected all the data.

It's been confirmed that Verizon wireless has been handing over phone records of ALL its customers to the NSA. That's number's dialed and received, call duration, locations calls were made and it's likely all the major carriers have been doing it as well.

Microsoft (2007), Yahoo (2008), Google (2009), Facebook (2009), YouTube (2010), Skype (2011), and Apple (2012) are all shown as participants in the program. So far they have all tried to deny it (shocking) but the government hasn't tried to debunk any of the information that's come out just saying that it's being misrepresented. Mind you, under the FISA act it's pretty much illegal for these companies to acknowledge or disclose any activity like this anyways. Anything these companies have on you, any information stored with them, and information that passes through them or has gone through them in the past is an open book to the NSA. Combine that with access from the major wireless carriers and any electronic communication, data, or document you've ever had that crossed through any of those networks is available to the NSA.

The NSA is banned from conducting operations against U.S. citizens. It's flat out fucking law. They are skirting around this by requiring a 51% confidence that data being collected is on a foreign national. Which means that 49% of the time they're after citizens. If they realizes that someone they're looking into is a citizen the promise, scout's honor, that the data is destroyed but PRISM's own documentation blows off this law breaking by calling it no big deal and not to bother reporting it to supervisors.

Combined with the Narus installations on the fiber optic backbones the NSA can monitor anything it wants, and 49% of the time, it's US citizens. No warrants, no due process, the 4th Amendment can kiss the NSA's ass. This program is also being overseen by the executive branch. And I have to hand it to Obama. He knew about PRISM and everything we don't know about, and he didn't start giggling when he swore, "To Preserve, Protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States." He probably muttered something about, "the parts that aren't inconvenient," in there somewhere. Legislative too though not all of them, and Judiciary, again not all of them but these are people who should look at this and say, "No, this is just wrong."

PRISM and EVERY program like it are blatant violations of the 1st and 4th Amendments and should be abolished immediately. The terrorist threat is largely imaginary and used as a flimsy justification to strip US citizens of even more of their constitutional rights. Think it's crazy? Remember last month when we found out government agencies were abusing their power to target groups not popular with the current administration? Notice how Microsoft was first on board with PRISM and their new game console has an HD webcam and microphone as part of it's core that cannot be disconnected and must be allowed to phone home once every 24 hours? It's stopped being a conspiracy theory, it's now reality.

And just to get out in front of the imbeciles who use the argument, "Well if you're not doing anything wrong..." Read this and fucking learn. You don't have to be doing anything wrong for pervasive government surveillance to start infringing your rights. The people getting targeted by the IRS did nothing illegal, they just held a political opinion those in power didn't care for. Sound familiar?

I used to think people who were terrified of government surveillance were paranoid. Now we've had it confirmed with fucking powerpoint slides making light of blatantly breaking the law and the assholes who are supposed to protect our freedoms are telling us to shut and just participate in our minute of hate against the terrorists.

It's 29 years late but fuck it, it's here.
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Re: PRISM

Postby Teaos » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:09 pm

While a lot of people do think, "Well I trust Obama" Or "I'm not doing anything bad", it was only 8 years ago we had Bush and his buddies in control, you trust them not to use it for their own gain?
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Re: PRISM

Postby Tyyr » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:04 pm

OBAMA KNEW. Obama didn't just know about PRISM he was authorizing it's expansion. It got started under Bush but Obama has presided over it's explosive expansion. Did we not just have the IRS attacking Republican entities? It's going on right now. This power exists and its being abused for political gain right the fuck now. You don't have to play what if games any more. This has stopped being something we need to watch for or be concerned about happening. It's already here.

Everyone who swore to uphold the constitution yet knew about this needs to be brought up on treason charges.
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Re: PRISM

Postby Jim » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:42 pm

I have no problem with government scanning my stuff if it is part of scanning everyone's stuff looking for keywords (etc) to keep my lifestyle going the way it is going.
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Re: PRISM

Postby Mikey » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:45 pm

It's not being used for political gain, as there's no gain to be had by it. Quite the opposite, in fact - Lord knows this had every chance of being exposed as it was, and as such is the polar opposite of political gain.

That being said, one does not have to label it as being used for political gain to be able to correctly say that it's just wrong. What's worse is that it's wrong but there's no upside. This isn't a useful anti-terror mechanism, not in any meaningful form. So, it's not even wrong "but, I guess I could justify it because it's helping us so much." Nope, it's just wrong. I don't blame Obama for this being in place - but I do blame him for allowing it to continue and prosper into what it's become. It's almost painful for me to hear people complain about this who were zealous supporters of W. when he started the shit, because that's not true moral outrage, it's merely taking advantage of the situation for political expediency. However, there are a small minority of people who actually call a spade a spade, were outraged when W. started it, and are likewise rightfully outraged at what it's become under Obama.

This is beyond left and right, and has become an issue of not what's legal, but what's ethical. Unfortunately, we have a huge shitload of people in this country who will call it OK when their party presides over it, and call it reprehensible when the other party presides over it. As long as those people are the major voting blocs in this nation, nothing will ever change save which party is currently fucking us.
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Re: PRISM

Postby Tyyr » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:02 pm

Jim wrote:I have no problem with government scanning my stuff if it is part of scanning everyone's stuff looking for keywords (etc) to keep my lifestyle going the way it is going.

You're the problem. You've willingly given your 1st and 4th Amendment rights away for nothing.
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Re: PRISM

Postby McAvoy » Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:17 am

My Facebook is blowing up with it but they think this is an Obama thing. Problem is this has been around for a long time. I have known about it and I have done as much as I can to minimize it as possible. But between GPS, media sites and the carrier itself it is hard if not impossible.
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Re: PRISM

Postby Jim » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:26 am

Tyyr wrote:
Jim wrote:I have no problem with government scanning my stuff if it is part of scanning everyone's stuff looking for keywords (etc) to keep my lifestyle going the way it is going.

You're the problem. You've willingly given your 1st and 4th Amendment rights away for nothing.


Actually, I do not see it as giving away either.

#4: Are the recored at Verizon yours or Verizon's? If Verizon gives them willingly then there is no law broken. Just like if the police come to your house/car and ask if they can search even though they do not have a warrent, if you say yes then it is legal.

#1: Freedom of religion - Does not apply in any way; Freedom of speech - no one is saying that I can not say anything that I am allowed to say (there are certain things that are illegal, like threatening the President): Freedom of the press - does not apply: Freedom of assembly - does not apply: Freedom of petition - does not apply.

Nope... didn't give away any rights...
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Re: PRISM

Postby Jim » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:31 am

McAvoy wrote:My Facebook is blowing up with it but they think this is an Obama thing. Problem is this has been around for a long time. I have known about it and I have done as much as I can to minimize it as possible. But between GPS, media sites and the carrier itself it is hard if not impossible.


No one NEEDS a personal cell phone. No one needs a GPS. No one needs Facebook. These things, and others, (laptop, satalite/cable tv, etc etc) just make life easier, not better and they certainly are not necessary. It is quite easy to take one out of the equation.
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Re: PRISM

Postby Tyyr » Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:15 pm

#4: Are the recored at Verizon yours or Verizon's? If Verizon gives them willingly then there is no law broken. Just like if the police come to your house/car and ask if they can search even though they do not have a warrent, if you say yes then it is legal.

Yeah, you're wrong. The police can't just demand phone records sans warrant or subpeona. They're not looking at individiuals under suspicion for a crime, they are drag netting Verizon's entire customer base. They're not allowed to do that. The government can't just start accessing records like that hoping to turn up something, that's the entire premise of the 4th amendment. Until they have an actual reason to investigate you they can't start hounding you.

You also completely ignored the remainder of the PRISM program. Please, by all means, explain how your 4th Amendment rights are intact with that.


Freedom of speech - no one is saying that I can not say anything that I am allowed to say (there are certain things that are illegal, like threatening the President): Freedom of the press - does not apply: Freedom of assembly - does not apply: Freedom of petition - does not apply.

Again, you are completely and incredibly wrong. The very fact that the government is monitoring what is said, collecting it, storing it, referencing it, is in fact infringing on free speech. It creates a climate in which your right to free speech is inhibited by the fact that the government is monitoring it. Concerns about how those in power could take what you say and twist it or use their powers (like the IRS) to punish you for what is said. You don't have to be gagging someone to violate their 1st amendment rights. It also applies to the press, assembly, petition and even religion. Creating a climate in which the government monitors everything and has to tacitly approve of what you say is infringing on free speech.

Nope... didn't give away any rights...

No, the problem is that you didn't understand your rights to begin with.

No one NEEDS a personal cell phone. No one needs a GPS. No one needs Facebook. These things, and others, (laptop, satalite/cable tv, etc etc) just make life easier, not better and they certainly are not necessary. It is quite easy to take one out of the equation.

Utterly irrelevant. Just because something is not technically a need doesn't mean its free of the Bill of Rights.
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Re: PRISM

Postby Tholian_Avenger » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:19 pm

Jim wrote:No one NEEDS a personal cell phone. No one needs a GPS. No one needs Facebook. These things, and others, (laptop, satalite/cable tv, etc etc) just make life easier, not better and they certainly are not necessary. It is quite easy to take one out of the equation.

Humans do not need a lot to live on, however that is not the point. American civilization says we don't necessitate rights on needs, but reserve them all except for what we have said that the governments (state and federal) need in their operation. We thought some are essentially vital and they were pointed out in the Bill of Rights. This is open to change by amendment and convention, and we haven't always made a great effort to follow it but it is a good standard and one we should keep.
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