SF mission planning - pilot thread

[Deepcrush]

Time constraints. I've got 30 minutes which is not enough time for me to drop off the troops far enough away for them to make a silent approach to the property and still have any buffer for completing the mission and pulling out before the site is pasted. Alternately landing my troops first then knocking the power out is a non-starter. A 14 acre plot isn't that large. Assuming the villa is dead center in the plot and the plot is a square then you're only looking about about 320 feet or so from the villa to the tree line. You don't have anywhere near enough room to land helicopters before hand without alerting everyone that you're there.

You have 30 minutes starting from when you enter the site. Not from when you launch your mission. Your team could have been in place for several hours or even several days if you wanted. Also, I never said you had to use helicopters. I said that they were an option.

That's why some of the first guys on the ground are the fire support teams with 7.62 weapons. It's a simple thing to put a few rounds into the engines and tires of any potential escape vehicles. They're not landing minutes after the power is taken out, they're landing within seconds of it being knocked out. Figure 30 seconds after the power line is down they're on the ground ready to shoot, if that much. The guy in the house is likely asleep as are most of his guards. I'm just not seeing how this guy is instantly up, in the car and gone, between the power going out and the troops hitting the ground. If the guy was sleeping in the car with it running maybe.

You're not factoring several things. One, your team is 30 seconds behind as is from the power outage. Two, your team now has to cover the ground between the LZ and the target location. Then they have to clear out all the hostiles without harming the target. You start shooting at a moving vehicle and you risk killing the target. Your team is expendable, the target is not. Now with that, even if you can do your entire run up in just 90 seconds. Thats 90 seconds for his guards to drag him out of bed, go down one flight of stairs and drive off.

Which is a nice thought but with the time constraints given how am I supposed to get someone in there silently to do it? With a 30 minute window and lord knows how long a trip from the staging point to the target time isn't on my side. My initial thought was a drop off well away from the target, walk in slow, take the power out silently, and then move in but with 30 minutes from wheels up to BOOM that's not gonna work.

Its 30 minutes starting when you order the first shot. Not from when you leave base or deploy on site.

[Deepcrush]

Can't say I blame you for wanting to play it SAS embassy style, Seafort. Anyway, is the target in a town or residential area?

Its farm land...

[Captain Seafort]

Can't say I blame you for wanting to play it SAS embassy style, Seafort.

When in doubt, take a leaf out of the professionals' book. Coming in from above puts you closer to the target, away from most of the guards, and gives you the higher ground.

[Deepcrush]

f**k.

For the location, its best that you not enter the roof anyhow.

Three teams - one to cut the power lines (two or three men should do), an assault team (four fireteams) and a back-up (one fireteam). The line team and backup come in by chopper out of earshot, the other by parachute. The assault team has three M72 LAWs, individual weapons are MP5s and Browning 9mm - we don't want over penetration. The line team sets a charge, and triggers it while the assault team are high enough up not to be spotted, then get out. The assault team destroys the vehicles, then moves in, secures the target, then gets out. One fireteam goes into the house, another secures the compound, the third stays at the gate to reinforce if necessary and the fourth splits into pairs to cover the rest of the perimeter. The backup team is inserted down the road from the compound in case the main team is spotted coming in and the target gets out. Once the job's done, everyone gets out via Chinook.

Your forces quickly over take the defenders. Minor casualties for your teams, maybe one or two fatal. Your mission is a success.

I see only one flaw in this profile, which I do believe Seafort allowed and in fact intended for. His forces would be in close contact with the target and defenders almost instantly which means no time to kill off any hostiles until you're face to face. This means increased risk for your teams but increased chances of success since he has a back up team waiting and can afford the loss of his forward team.

[Tyyr]

You have 30 minutes starting from when you enter the site. Not from when you launch your mission. Your team could have been in place for several hours or even several days if you wanted.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think that was entirely clear.

Also, I never said you had to use helicopters. I said that they were an option.

Well that was based off my assumption that I had 30 minutes total to do the mission.

You're not factoring several things. One, your team is 30 seconds behind as is from the power outage. Two, your team now has to cover the ground between the LZ and the target location.

This I was aware of, which is why I had the fire support teams dropped first.

Then they have to clear out all the hostiles without harming the target. You start shooting at a moving vehicle and you risk killing the target. Your team is expendable, the target is not. Now with that, even if you can do your entire run up in just 90 seconds. Thats 90 seconds for his guards to drag him out of bed, go down one flight of stairs and drive off.

I'm not entirely convinced low grade guards are going to be that on the ball but it's not my scenario.

Its 30 minutes starting when you order the first shot. Not from when you leave base or deploy on site.

Time on site. Once the clock starts, it will not stop.

Not 100% clear there.

[Tyyr]

And I'm not asking for a do over, just saying.

[Captain Seafort]

I see only one flaw in this profile, which I do believe Seafort allowed and in fact intended for. His forces would be in close contact with the target and defenders almost instantly which means no time to kill off any hostiles until you're face to face. This means increased risk for your teams but increased chances of success since he has a back up team waiting and can afford the loss of his forward team.

Exactly. My key concern would be the main force being spotted coming in - they'd be sitting ducks on their chutes, and the target would be able to get out. Hence the backup team. The main team would rely on speed and surprise to succeed - the main action, from destroying the vehicles to calling in the choppers for evacuation, should last only a couple of minutes. Poor quality troops caught by surprise against western special forces who each know exactly what their role will be - the result is easily predictable. I expect the two assault fireteams to complete the mission on their own but having something extra up your sleeve is always a good thing.

[Deepcrush]

I was about as clear as I thought I could be. I even pointed it out several times how the Time system was working. Don't know what else I could have said. As to the guards and how fast they get out of dodge... Bullets flying in your direction can make you move much faster then you thought possible. I accounted for them acting more out of panic then anything else.

Tyyr, from my POV your actions are more like you're engaging a military target. This isn't the case here.

[Deepcrush]

Exactly. My key concern would be the main force being spotted coming in - they'd be sitting ducks on their chutes, and the target would be able to get out. Hence the backup team. The main team would rely on speed and surprise to succeed - the main action, from destroying the vehicles to calling in the choppers for evacuation, should last only a couple of minutes. Poor quality troops caught by surprise against western special forces who each know exactly what their role will be - the result is easily predictable. I expect the two assault fireteams to complete the mission on their own, having something extra up your sleeve is always a good thing.

You do have a solid advantage of only having to be a hundred feet up for a low speed drop. NVGs give you night sight were the enemy is mostly blind. If your boys in the air aren't shooting then there's little to no chance of them being seen until its to late. Drop them a hundred yards out and they're at the wall by the time your first ground teams are entering the house.

Its a classic roll over action, right out of the text books.

[Tyyr]

I was about as clear as I thought I could be. I even pointed it out several times how the Time system was working. Don't know what else I could have said.

Well,

Its 30 minutes starting when you order the first shot.

That right there does it perfectly.

As to the guards and how fast they get out of dodge... Bullets flying in your direction can make you move much faster then you thought possible. I accounted for them acting more out of panic then anything else.

True

Tyyr, from my POV your actions are more like you're engaging a military target. This isn't the case here.

To be honest you're probably not wrong. Most of the thought exercises I've engaged in with problems like these have usually had "And bring X back alive if at all possible," as the main goal, not "Bring X back alive or else."

[Mikey]

Well, "f***" for me too. Seafort wanted SAS style, I wanted to go Entebbe on their asses. OK... three squads, two fireteams each. Considering all evidence will be glassed, standard arm will be a short-barreled HK416. In each squad, fireteam alpha will comprise squad leader; grenadier w/ underbarrel M320; rifleman w/ underbarrel M26 MASS; rifleman/spotter; and DSM w/ an M14 derivative. Fireteam bravo will be similar but replace the DMR w/ an M32 mod 0 semiauto 40mm grenade launcher. The unit will be in-country beforehand, and will deploy at 0100, 120 degrees from each other around the perimeter. At go, the grenadiers neutralize vehicles and outbuildings and guardhouses while the M32's lay smoke around the main house. Squads then leapfrog to the house with DMR teams covering GL squads to fill the house with smoke. DMR teams leapfrog again, quartering the house until target is located. Succesful squad moves out with covering fire from other squads moving out at false angles. Extraction by helo simultaneous with airstrike.

[Deepcrush]

Well, "f***" for me too. Seafort wanted SAS style, I wanted to go Entebbe on their asses. OK... three squads, two fireteams each. Considering all evidence will be glassed, standard arm will be a short-barreled HK416. In each squad, fireteam alpha will comprise squad leader; grenadier w/ underbarrel M320; rifleman w/ underbarrel M26 MASS; rifleman/spotter; and DSM w/ an M14 derivative. Fireteam bravo will be similar but replace the DMR w/ an M32 mod 0 semiauto 40mm grenade launcher. The unit will be in-country beforehand, and will deploy at 0100, 120 degrees from each other around the perimeter. At go, the grenadiers neutralize vehicles and outbuildings and guardhouses while the M32's lay smoke around the main house. Squads then leapfrog to the house with DMR teams covering GL squads to fill the house with smoke. DMR teams leapfrog again, quartering the house until target is located. Succesful squad moves out with covering fire from other squads moving out at false angles. Extraction by helo simultaneous with airstrike.

This one is tricky to judge. I like the hard/fast strike but... if your teams are on the outer edge of the property when the shooting starts then there is a risk of the target fleeing. Your mission success will be figured by how fast your teams can move on the location. Still, I rate this as a more likely then not being a success. That said however, I'd also rate this has having a high risk to the target.

[Mikey]

I figured three teams equidistant would be able to eliminate escape routes, but I suppose it's fair that fighting in across the compound poses a risk to the target. I kinda figured we'd be talking Delta-type units, trained for paramilitary targets, which would pretty much guarantee appropriate target recog.

[Deepcrush]

I figured three teams equidistant would be able to eliminate escape routes, but I suppose it's fair that fighting in across the compound poses a risk to the target. I kinda figured we'd be talking Delta-type units, trained for paramilitary targets, which would pretty much guarantee appropriate target recog.

Its not just your guys you have to worry about with it comes to picking who they shoot at. With your profile, I don't expect target escape. However, I do expect a better then 'agreeable' risk to the target.

[Captain Seafort]

I'd also be a bit nervous about the use of assault rifles rather than SMGs. At range they're far superior, but once you're in the house I can see rounds overpenetrating, going through walls, etc, with a risk of hitting either the target or possibly even your own guys. That's why I went for pistol-calibre ammunition, and dropping the main force right on top of the compound, to get the range down ASAP and to minimise the time available for the target and guard force to react. Of course you've still got similar problems even with 9mm, but it's much reduced.