Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Mark
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 17671
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

Re: Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Post by Mark »

I agree......but I'm having a hard time why they can be so much more advanced than the Colonials in most techs, but be around 70 to 100 years behind the Colonials in weapons and defensive techs.
They say that in the Army,
the women are mighty fine.
They look like Phyllis Diller,
and walk like Frankenstein.
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

Re: Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Post by Tyyr »

Not necessarily behind. I think they've just made different design decisions. The Colonials built the battlestars for straight up ship on ship engagements. The Cylons built their basestars for anti-insurgency work. Rochey's explanation is plausible that the Cylons assumed their virus would work and built their fleet not for a war but for the aftermath.
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Post by Captain Seafort »

Not necessarily - the main reason Cylon missile spam is ineffective is because of the Battlestars' flak barrier. With the virus disabling their systems, that flak barrier would be removed, making the stand-off missile spam a good way of staying clear of any Colonial attempts to ram (assuming engines can be more easily switched over to manual control than weapons).
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Mark wrote:Now, that said....I've come up with an explination (possibly). If the Cylon mindset is based around the idea of resurection, perhaps they're not overly concerned about building survivable ships?
Unlikely. What glimpses we get at the Cylon industrial base does not seem all that impressive. Without going into spoilers, I'd estimate the entirety of their fleet numbered less than half of the Colonial Fleet. They're in no position to start treating vessels as expendable.
Captain Seafort wrote:Not necessarily - the main reason Cylon missile spam is ineffective is because of the Battlestars' flak barrier. With the virus disabling their systems, that flak barrier would be removed, making the stand-off missile spam a good way of staying clear of any Colonial attempts to ram (assuming engines can be more easily switched over to manual control than weapons).
Agreed. In the one instance where Galactica is without its flak barrier it gets hammered pretty quickly.
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 11561
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK
Contact:

Re: Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Post by Graham Kennedy »

Mark wrote:I agree......but I'm having a hard time why they can be so much more advanced than the Colonials in most techs, but be around 70 to 100 years behind the Colonials in weapons and defensive techs.
I don't think they are behind as such, it's a design choice. As I said, my suspicion is that the Cylons planned to fight at long range, far enough to be out of the effective range of Battlestar guns. So they figured no need for masses of close in defence weapons; devote that space to more missile and fighter storage instead.

Unfortunately for them, it hasn't worked out that way. Perhaps Battlestars are faster than the Cylons expected, or their guns longer ranged or more accurate. Whatever, Battlestars have consistently been able to close to within gun range and plaster the base stars. Bad design choice by the Cylons; it's let the Colonials fight to their strengths, despite having a technology lag.
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
Mark
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 17671
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

Re: Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Post by Mark »

Its a pretty serious design flaw to have one of your capital ships crumble under a single enemy salvo.
They say that in the Army,
the women are mighty fine.
They look like Phyllis Diller,
and walk like Frankenstein.
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Post by Sionnach Glic »

GrahamKennedy wrote:Unfortunately for them, it hasn't worked out that way. Perhaps Battlestars are faster than the Cylons expected, or their guns longer ranged or more accurate. Whatever, Battlestars have consistently been able to close to within gun range and plaster the base stars.
Have they really? In most battles the Cylon Basestars do stay out of range of the Colonials. Most that we see go down to the Galactica or the Pegasus get taken down either because they were defending something (Battle of the Resurrection Ship/Hub) or because they were taken by surprise (New Caprica, Kobol). The only instance I can think of offhand where a Battlestar actualy closes with a Basestar that doesn't have to hold position for whatever reason is in The Captain's Hand, which could probably be chalked up to overconfidence and lack of caution on the Cylons' part (they'd been hammering the Pegasus until Lee took command, after all).
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 11561
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK
Contact:

Re: Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Post by Graham Kennedy »

But that's just agreeing with what I've said. I speculated as to some reasons, but whatever the reason, the Battlestars get in close. If having to remain in a defensive position is the reason, so what? It still means that the base star design is badly chosen for the role, because the role involves holding defensive positions quite often, and base stars suck at it.
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Oh, right. Thought you were getting at something else. We're in agreement then.
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
Aaron
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
Posts: 10988
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:01 pm
Location: Timepire Mobile Command Centre
Contact:

Re: Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Post by Aaron »

One wonders what the Cylons intended to do if the virus failed or for reasons unknown, the Colonial Fleet survived in numbers to fight back. One Battlestar's flak guns are capable of holding off at least two Baseships (Pegasus would likely have taken out all three at New Caprica if fully crewed, w/flak up) but they are obviously not designed to work alone. Lots of the show points to them operating in groups, which means escorts and a stronger flak barrier.

Looks like the Cylons would be pretty pooched with just their Raiders and Baseships.
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 11561
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK
Contact:

Re: Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Post by Graham Kennedy »

Can you imagine four Battlestars flying in a box formation? And with 800 fighters in the sky to boot. That would be a hell of a force.
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
Aaron
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
Posts: 10988
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:01 pm
Location: Timepire Mobile Command Centre
Contact:

Re: Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Post by Aaron »

Yeah it would. NO wonder the skinjobs went for the virus.
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Cpl Kendall wrote:One wonders what the Cylons intended to do if the virus failed or for reasons unknown, the Colonial Fleet survived in numbers to fight back. One Battlestar's flak guns are capable of holding off at least two Baseships (Pegasus would likely have taken out all three at New Caprica if fully crewed, w/flak up) but they are obviously not designed to work alone. Lots of the show points to them operating in groups, which means escorts and a stronger flak barrier.
They already had humanoid Cylons infiltrated into the Fleet. Maybe even onto every ship. It seems that they were planning to take down any unaffected vessels by sabotage, as they tried with Galactica and Pegasus. That tactic obviously didn't work as well as they thought it would, however.
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
Aaron
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
Posts: 10988
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:01 pm
Location: Timepire Mobile Command Centre
Contact:

Re: Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Post by Aaron »

That was their plan for the Bucket? I totally missed it.
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: Would the colonies have won an honest war?

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Well, they had Doral plant some weird device in the Galactica's CIC in the Miniseries. Then when that ploy failed (Baltar spotted it) they had Boomer start setting up bombs around the place.
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
Post Reply