The Finale

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Re: The Finale

Post by Tsukiyumi »

So... I'm getting that you didn't like it?
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
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Re: The Finale

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Tsukiyumi wrote:So... I'm getting that you didn't like it?
Tsukiyumi wrote:So... I'm getting that you didn't like it?
Frankly, I think the entire series was over rated. There were some decent elements to it but I hated Starbuck with a passion and it could have done with a little more thinking through. They are now going to do a series showing the conflict from the Cylon's side, both to make money and because they did not do a very good job at explaining the Cyon plan in the first place. I mean, they seem to find breeding a half human/Cylon hybrid to be important but they nuke Mankind almost completely out of existence. Wouldn't it have made more sense to nuke 11 of the 12 colonies and to conquer the 12th?

How convenient that the final five miraculously survived in the refugee fleet. No amount of planning on Cavil's part could have insured that.

The Cylons bucket heads start out as nigh-unstoppable, but by in the proud tradition of Star Trek they become very porous to conventional firearms by the time New Caprica is settled.

And Starbuck? I despised her for lots of reasons, and the worst thing about her is no matter how reprehensible she became everyone still seemed wuv her.
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Re: The Finale

Post by Deepcrush »

Someone is very angry...
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Re: The Finale

Post by katefan »

Not angry, just frustrated that this series was considered so great when all I saw was a load of mediocrity occasionally interspersed with a good episode.

Hell, Starbuck got Lee's brother and Adama's son killed, slept with Lee behind Duella's and her husband's back, and was pretty much an arrogant bitch throughout the series. They made her the greatest pilot, the greatest marksman, an excellent boxer and a champion Pyramid player. Can you say Mary Sue? Munchkin?

Lee? Candy ass, utterly whipped. I found nothing redeeming about his character, with half his motivation being Daddy issues and the other half being led around by his dick by Starbuck.

God how I hated most of these characters. Just a pathetic bunch I wish could have died with the rest of humanity.
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Re: The Finale

Post by Sionnach Glic »

First of all, I found no real importance to Helo and Boomer mk II's child.
Hera turned out to be our species' ancestor. That's pretty important.
Second, the destruction of the fleet made no sense whatsoever.
Why? Just how long could those ships have been kept running for, anyway? Galactica was crippled, and I'd imagine that it was far more capable of standing up to the rigours of being constantly on the run than civilian cruise ships and freighters. Within a few months, maybe a year at best, the fleet would probably have fallen apart due to lack of maintanence and spare parts. It was a choice between settling on New Earth, or slowly dying off in space.
The liberated Cylons could always come back and wipe out humanity.
Yeah, they could have. That was a leap of faith on the behalf of the Colonials. But exactly what could they have done to prevent that, if the Cylons wanted them dead? Nothing. They had one crippled Battlestar that was on the verge of breaking apart, and a bunch of unarmed civilian ships. They'd be fucked anyway, regardless of whether they were in ships or on the surface of a planet. Being in ships just gives a few of them the slight chance of escaping the attack, thus being doomed to a slow death as they wander among the stars. Again, they had no other options.
How 30,000 people agreed to strand themselves on a single world with potential enemies still out there-potential enemies that knew where they were!-was moronic.
As I pointed out, exactly what other options do they have? With the Galactica fucked beyond any hope of repair, they're defenceless. Galactica also processed a third of the fleet's water supplies. When its processing systems went down in Water, thousands of people were at risk of death from dehydration. Exactly how are they going to stop this happening again? Leaving New Earth alone and continuing to wander the galaxy aimlessly would doom thousands to a slow and unpleasant death.

By all means, do explain how just dumping the BSG and having the civilian fleet wander the galaxy until their ships all break down and they die of starvation is better than settling on a planet with the possible chance that they might all be killed.
Third, destruction of the fleet to get back to nature or whatever complete nonsense Lee sold his Dad was beyond stupid.
Yeah, Lee's speach was retarded. No arguments there. Then again, he's always been rather naive and idealistic in certain matters.
. First of all, how are 30,000 largely city born people supposed to become farmers and hunters? They come from a hi-tech society and are thrown back into the stone age overnight.Who is going to agree to do this?
Since when were they "largely city born people"?
There are 5,251 Saggitarons in the fleet (ref: "33"). Saggitaron is implied to have a rather large agricultural sector. As such, it wouldn't be surprising if a fair portion of the Saggitaron survivors know at least something about basic farming.
There are also 9,500 Gemenons among the fleet (ref: "Home, Part 1"). Gemenon is described as a rather backwards, superstitious and uneducated planet. Again, not too far fetched to think that a lot of them could know a bit about basic farming.
Although we have no numbers on them, Aerilon was described as the food-basket of the 12 Colonies, implying a lot of agricultural work went on there.

So there's a pretty good chunk who may know the basics about growing food.

As for hunting, I'd imagine that the Colonial military trains their troops how to live "rough", much like modern militaries. I can see basic hunting skills being a part of this. And anyway, they have guns. As long as you're a reasonably good shooter, it wouldn't be too hard to hit one of the many animals wandering around the place. Just find an elephant and put a few rounds in its head. That'll feed a fair few people.
Lee talks about breaking the cycle by doing this, but how is the cycle supposed to be broken when history will be forgotten because all forms of physical literature are going to be lost over time and electronic information is none existent? Oral history does not work; how many oral stories outside of Beowolf actually survived, and how many would survive 150,000 years?
Obviously, none of it survived. Lee was just being idealistic about the whole thing, thinking that they'd become some sort of low-tech utopia. Obviously, they didn't.
Lee is a moron. It is obvious this keeps happening again because people keep forgetting what happened before! He has some sort of hippie-fied idea that their new age religion or whatever is going to so transform these aboriginals that a golden age will appear.
Now you're getting it. :wink:
Finally, the flashbacks were padding, pure and simple. I did not need to see Adama looking for a new job, Roslyn sleeping with a guy and deciding to join a presidential campaign or Baltar inadvertently selling out humanity to Six.
Aye, the flasbacks were pretty damn pointless. They were nothing important or interesting.
This was not All Good Things, it was not even What You Leave Behind. It was lame and the writers/director were desperately hoping all the happy, feel good moments would cover up the gaping plot holes. Looks like it worked.
What plot holes? Pretty much everything was explained.

Why do you consider it lame?
Because they decided to settle on the planet? They had no other realistic choice. Any other course of action would have doomed them to a slow death.
Because they didn't try rebuilding their hi-tech civilisation? Again, they had no choice in this. They left all of their heavy equipment back on New Caprica. They had no means of mining materials for construction, or processing fuel for vehicles. Any attempt to re-establish any sort of civilisation would have been met with massive failure. Going back to a more sustainable form of civilisation was the best possible choice. Sure, they'll all be complaining about "the good old days" within a month, but at least this way they survive.
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Re: The Finale

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Hell, Starbuck got Lee's brother and Adama's son killed, slept with Lee behind Duella's and her husband's back, and was pretty much an arrogant bitch throughout the series. They made her the greatest pilot, the greatest marksman, an excellent boxer and a champion Pyramid player. Can you say Mary Sue? Munchkin?
Yeah, Starbuck was a fucking annoying character. How does that make the finale suck? Apart from one action, she did nothing of any real note in that episode.
Lee? Candy ass, utterly whipped. I found nothing redeeming about his character, with half his motivation being Daddy issues and the other half being led around by his dick by Starbuck.
?
While he certainly had issues with his father, his actions were motivated more by his idealism than anything else.
God how I hated most of these characters. Just a pathetic bunch I wish could have died with the rest of humanity.
Remind me again; why are you watching this show if you hate everyone on it?

Humans suck. It's a simple fact of life. We're dumb, act irrationaly, make retarded decisions with infuriating regularity, and have a complete inability to learn from our mistakes. nBSG just showed us that their humans were just as bad as we are. There were plenty of good characters around the place. The presence of one or two sucky characters doesn't cancel them out.
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Re: The Finale

Post by Deepcrush »

:laughroll:

I liked Starbuck though. She was a tough little bitch. Lee was a bit of a pussy but so is most of the human race. Can't really hold that against him.
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Re: The Finale

Post by Sionnach Glic »

I hated Starbuck because of the gods damned Mary-Sueness of her character. She was great at everything.

The "tough little bitch" award goes to Cally, IMO. It's hard to beat biting an armed attempted rapist's ear off.
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Re: The Finale

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Not really. Starbuck sucked at taking orders or relationships or getting along with people.
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Re: The Finale

Post by Sionnach Glic »

True, but one character defect doesn't change the fact that she's good at damn near everything.
She's one of the best pilots.
She's one of the best shooters.
She's one of their best tacticians.
She's a painter.
She's able to play the piano.
She's got a destiny that will lead to the survival of humanity.
Etc.

And that's just off the top of my head.
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Re: The Finale

Post by Tsukiyumi »

I can shoot rather well.
I've never had the opportunity to fly, but I ace simulators every time.
I paint.
I play the guitar, bass guitar, keyboards, xylophone, and I'm a decent singer.
I write at a college level, even though I never finished 9th grade.
In fights, I tend to come out on top due to superior training, and keeping a cool head.
I can also do plumbing work, carpentry, and electrical.

Off the top of my head. Does that make me a real-life Gary Stu?

I haven't seen the show, so I'm not really attacking your argument; I'm just pointing out that just because a character is talented in a number of different fields doesn't necessarily make them unrealistic.
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
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Re: The Finale

Post by Deepcrush »

Rochey wrote:True, but one character defect doesn't change the fact that she's good at damn near everything.
She's one of the best pilots.
She's one of the best shooters.
She's one of their best tacticians.
She's a painter.
She's able to play the piano.
She's got a destiny that will lead to the survival of humanity.
Etc.

And that's just off the top of my head.
ONE OF...
the best pilots who is serving under Adama who is the best.
the best shooter... never saw her acting as a sniper.
the best tactician, again she serves under Adama who is the best.
painter... crappy one from what I remember.
piano... not a big deal since she's not that good at it.
Destiny is nothing. She's dead and got replaced by someone else.

None of this shocks me.
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Re: The Finale

Post by katefan »

Hera turned out to be our species' ancestor. That's pretty important.

30,000 humans wound up being our specie's ancestor. Big deal.

Why? Just how long could those ships have been kept running for, anyway? Galactica was crippled, and I'd imagine that it was far more capable of standing up to the rigours of being constantly on the run than civilian cruise ships and freighters. Within a few months, maybe a year at best, the fleet would probably have fallen apart due to lack of maintanence and spare parts. It was a choice between settling on New Earth, or slowly dying off in space.

I never said they should keep going. But the ships are a source of power and shelter. They are the foundation for maintaining a level of technology and are a link to Man's past. By destroying them Mankind just went back to square one, and hence began the cycle all over again because now there is no way to remember any war with murderous robots.

Yeah, they could have. That was a leap of faith on the behalf of the Colonials. But exactly what could they have done to prevent that, if the Cylons wanted them dead? Nothing. They had one crippled Battlestar that was on the verge of breaking apart, and a bunch of unarmed civilian ships. They'd be f***ed anyway, regardless of whether they were in ships or on the surface of a planet. Being in ships just gives a few of them the slight chance of escaping the attack, thus being
doomed to a slow death as they wander among the stars. Again, they had no other options.


With a planet full of resources they could have rebuilt their civilization. New Caprica was a poor choice for this due to the marginal existence they sustained there. But on Earth with lush fields for growing, massive amounts of wildlife for meat and technology that put them on the top of the food chain they could have created a true New Caprica.

As I pointed out, exactly what other options do they have? With the Galactica f***ed beyond any hope of repair, they're defenceless. Galactica also processed a third of the fleet's water supplies. When its processing systems went down in Water, thousands of people were at risk of death from dehydration. Exactly how are they going to stop this happening again? Leaving New Earth alone and continuing to wander the galaxy aimlessly would doom thousands to a slow and unpleasant
death.


And I never said they had to leave this Earth. Those ships are more than just a means of transportation. They are the building blocks of a modern society.

By all means, do explain how just dumping the BSG and having the civilian fleet wander the galaxy until their ships all break down and they die of starvation is better than settling on a planet with the possible chance that they might all be killed.


Again, I never said they should abandon Earth. I know all along Mankind's means of survival would be to settle a world where they could thrive, not just survive. You are putting words into my mouth.

There are 5,251 Saggitarons in the fleet (ref: "33"). Saggitaron is implied to have a rather large agricultural sector. As such, it wouldn't be surprising if a fair portion of the Saggitaron survivors know at least something about basic farming.

How many of those Saggitarons survived all four seasons? For all you know all 5,251 got wiped out early on. If they stuck close together they could have been nuked in season two's finale. And just because I might be from Idaho doesn't mean I know a damn thing about potato farming.

There are also 9,500 Gemenons among the fleet (ref: "Home, Part 1"). Gemenon is described as a rather backwards, superstitious and uneducated planet. Again, not too far fetched to think that a lot of them could know a bit about basic farming.

I am aware of a lot of rednecks who only know about how to drink beer and watch NASCAR. Backwards does not mean useful in a low tech situation.

Although we have no numbers on them, Aerilon was described as the food-basket of the 12 Colonies, implying a lot of agricultural work went on there.

So there's a pretty good chunk who may know the basics about growing food.


Those are some valid points, I grant you.

As for hunting, I'd imagine that the Colonial military trains their troops how to live "rough", much like modern militaries. I can see basic hunting skills being a part of this. And anyway, they have guns. As long as you're a reasonably good shooter, it wouldn't be too hard to hit one of the many animals wandering around the place. Just find an elephant and put a few rounds in its head. That'll feed a fair few people.

And without a tech base to replace bullets or maintain those guns you are going to lose them in a few generations.

Obviously, none of it survived. Lee was just being idealistic about the whole thing, thinking that they'd become some sort of low-tech utopia. Obviously, they didn't.

And I find it utterly moronic that 30,000 people went along with this.

Now you're getting it. :wink:

I have no idea what you are getting at, other than the poitn of the series was an exercise in futility. That the struggle we saw these people endure meant absolutely nothing because 30,000 people died and their struggle would be forgotten. The cycle would continue because there was no record. If this was the point of the series then it was pretty pointless.

What plot holes? Pretty much everything was explained.

How Cylons are almost indestructible early on and become cannon fodder by the New Caprica settlement.

What the Cylons' plan was? Oh, that's right, I have to watch an entirely different series for that.

How 30,000 people could be convinced destroying their ships and making their lives even harder and more miserable, as well as depriving them of even a hope of escape if the Cylons decide to wipe them out.

How if they know it has happened before and it will happen again that Lee and the rest don't try and determine some way of insuring their descendants will know it had happened. But without knowledge of what a robot even is how can they do that?

Why do you consider it lame? Because they decided to settle on the planet? They had no other realistic choice.

Once more, I said there was nothing bad about settling on a planet.

Any other course of action would have doomed them to a slow death.

As opposed to the slow death of dealing with going primitive. You have a point about there being farmers in the fleet, but without modern medical technology these people are in for a bleak future.

Because they didn't try rebuilding their hi-tech civilisation? Again, they had no choice in this. They left all of their heavy equipment back on New Caprica. They had no means of mining materials for construction, or processing fuel for vehicles. Any attempt to re-establish any sort of civilisation would have been met with massive failure.

Yes, a lot of that stuff was left behind. But it was obvious there were plans for a new city. Galactica, while crippled, could have provided plenty of raw material for construction. It had machine shops that could have been transferred to the planet below. Ships have engines, perhaps some of the fighters could have been dismantled. We saw the chief build a stealth fighter from scratch so innovation was nothing new to these people.

Going back to a more sustainable form of civilisation was the best possible choice. Sure, they'll all be complaining about "the good old days" within a month, but at least this way they survive.

I disagree. The mechanisms were still there for an advanced civilization. Simply destroying all their ships deprived them of advanced medical care, durable shelter, data bases full of useful information.

Also, consider this. In Ireland the Potato Famine killed up to perhaps 1.5 million people. Imagine if such a blight had struck the colonists? With the ships they could have pulled up stakes and moved to another region of the planet. Or they could have used the ships on massive foraging expeditions to lush regions of the world. Or their medical databases could have found a cure for such a blight. A small colony of 30,000 people could be wiped out in a year by such an event. And
yet you think living simple is somehow better?
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Re: The Finale

Post by Aaron »

Tsukiyumi wrote:I can shoot rather well.
I've never had the opportunity to fly, but I ace simulators every time.
I paint.
I play the guitar, bass guitar, keyboards, xylophone, and I'm a decent singer.
I write at a college level, even though I never finished 9th grade.
In fights, I tend to come out on top due to superior training, and keeping a cool head.
I can also do plumbing work, carpentry, and electrical.

Off the top of my head. Does that make me a real-life Gary Stu?

I haven't seen the show, so I'm not really attacking your argument; I'm just pointing out that just because a character is talented in a number of different fields doesn't necessarily make them unrealistic.
No it doesn't because your not a character in someones fiction. I can forgive any of the hobbies, that's no big deal but to be an ace fighter pilot and an ace sniper? That stretches SoD so thin it might be catgut.
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Re: The Finale

Post by katefan »

Yeah, Starbuck was a f***ing annoying character. How does that make the finale suck? Apart from one action, she did nothing of any real note in that episode.

She turned out to be an angel who led them to the promised land. I threw up a little in my mouth at that.

While he certainly had issues with his father, his actions were motivated more by his idealism than anything else.

Sure, later on. But so much of what he did during the series involved butting heads with his father. Representing Baltar, for example, was more to spite Adama than anything else.

Remind me again; why are you watching this show if you hate everyone on it?

I watched the series off and on, much like I did with Enterprise. I repeatedly gave it a chance but the finale just showed me I was right not to give it the devotion some have.

Humans suck. It's a simple fact of life. We're dumb, act irrationaly, make retarded decisions with infuriating regularity, and have a complete inability to learn from our mistakes. nBSG just showed us that their humans were just as bad as we are. There were plenty of good characters around the place. The presence of one or two sucky characters doesn't cancel them out.[/quote]

With that attitude then why bother watching Star Trek, which teaches us humans can be something better? What BSG pretty much says is humans are hamsters running in a wheel.
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