Is the future bereft of culture?

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Re: Is the future bereft of culture?

Postby sunnyside » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:40 pm

Mikey wrote:But why should there be any slightest intimation that a 23rd/24th century valuation of class or classicism is remotely similar to our own?


Well, Plato and Sun Tzu have had stood the test of time for something like 24 centuries, why not two or three more?

But more than that it seems to be institutionalized within Starfleet. There were references to required classical reading that are cannon, and, checking memory beta however much you consider that, the studies of ancient and/or classical materials shows strongly.

I'd expect some works of the sort that could make their way into a novels class would make their way into the "classics" syllabus after a sufficient length of time (as, Ian reminds us, it seems "Valley of the Dolls" managed).

In world, I also note that the time period from the twentieth century to First Contact is always considered to be a dark mark on at least human history. Some pontification to that effect is common to most if not all time travel episodes to that period, the Eugenics wars come up now and then, and Q enjoyed rubbing our noses in the nature of those times. So perhaps Starfleet avoids discussing those times the way Klingons avoid talking about their Augments.

Or perhaps for a large chunk of that time the cultural greats were all genetically modified, and their works are actively suppressed and devalued for that reason.
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Re: Is the future bereft of culture?

Postby IanKennedy » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:38 am

Not really. They produced music, even if it wasn't to everybody's taste. Nobody could accuse the Sex Pistols of producing music.
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Re: Is the future bereft of culture?

Postby Mikey » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:33 pm

IanKennedy wrote:Not really. They produced music, even if it wasn't to everybody's taste. Nobody could accuse the Sex Pistols of producing music.


You have obviously never listened to Schoenberg... lucky for you.
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Re: Is the future bereft of culture?

Postby sunnyside » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:55 pm

I just saw the remastered version of "The City on the Edge of Forever"

Plenty of calling the era barbaric and a dark time. I also noted Kirk quoted some famous writer that was from his time (or close to it). No name or indication of race, just that they were from a distant star system.
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Re: Is the future bereft of culture?

Postby Graham Kennedy » Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:14 pm

Kirk : "Let me help. A hundred years or so from now, I believe, a famous novelist will write a classic using that theme. He'll recommend those three words even over 'I love you'."
Edith : "Centuries from now? Who is he? Where does he come? Where will he come from?"
Kirk : "Silly question. Want to hear a silly answer?"
Edith : "Yes."
Kirk : "A planet circling that far left star in Orion's belt. See?"

A hundred years from Edith's time would put it in about 2030. About 15 years from now, and more than two centuries in Kirk's own past.
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Re: Is the future bereft of culture?

Postby sunnyside » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:34 pm

Graham Kennedy wrote:Kirk : "Let me help. A hundred years or so from now, I believe, a famous novelist will write a classic using that theme. He'll recommend those three words even over 'I love you'."
Edith : "Centuries from now? Who is he? Where does he come? Where will he come from?"
Kirk : "Silly question. Want to hear a silly answer?"
Edith : "Yes."
Kirk : "A planet circling that far left star in Orion's belt. See?"

A hundred years from Edith's time would put it in about 2030. About 15 years from now, and more than two centuries in Kirk's own past.


Oop, I guess I misheard his quote. It doesn't help with her saying "Centuries from now." Huh. I suppose, barring some Trek oddness, that means it's an alien author. Even if the "or so" puts it on the other side of humanity becoming warp capable, that star is a far reach even in Kirk's time.
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Re: Is the future bereft of culture?

Postby Captain Seafort » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:50 pm

sunnyside wrote:Even if the "or so" puts it on the other side of humanity becoming warp capable, that star is a far reach even in Kirk's time.


Not really. I agree that the likelihood of the author being human is very low indeed, but the outer stars of Orion's belt, Delta and Zeta Orionis, are both within 1000 light years of Earth - the E-nil could probably do that in less than a day if she pushed it.
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Re: Is the future bereft of culture?

Postby Teaos » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:43 pm

A thousand light years in a Day? I think you mean a year. Otherwise Voyager would have been home in a bit over 2 months.
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Re: Is the future bereft of culture?

Postby Captain Seafort » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:10 pm

Teaos wrote:A thousand light years in a Day? I think you mean a year.


No, I mean a day - look at the E-nil covering close to 1000 ly in the space of an episode in "That Which Survives", travelling at over 100 kc in "Bread and Circuses", and Kirk ordering Warp 1 to recover from being chucked 1500+ ly by an alien of the week in "Arena". Routinely demonstrated TOS speeds were several orders of magnitude better than their TNG+ equivalents.
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Re: Is the future bereft of culture?

Postby Teaos » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:38 pm

Do you have a in universe reason to explain the difference in speeds?
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Re: Is the future bereft of culture?

Postby Graham Kennedy » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:34 am

Trek has always been rather inconsistent about the speeds of the ships. Even the official scales don't make that much sense - they're really much too slow.

The most notorious example is Star Trek V. Trip from Nimbus III to the centre of the galaxy in a few hours. So much for Voyager's decades long trip home!

It's made worse by the fact that the ship rarely even went at anything like maximum speed. Kirk often ordered the Enterprise to head somewhere at warp 2 or so. Crossing one sector at that speed would take 2.5 years, in theory.
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Re: Is the future bereft of culture?

Postby Teaos » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:46 pm

I like slower ships. It adds drama. I always though they should of made the speeds comprable to the age of sails and the world. Lets say the USA is the Federation, so to travel to the Klngons it would be the same as California to Japan. Romulans? NY to Italy.

By having speed be to high you allow reinforcements to arrive in minutes or hours. A enemy ship comes across the DMZ? You can have half of starfleet there in 6 hours. If on the other hand it takes 12 days... makes for better story telling.
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Re: Is the future bereft of culture?

Postby sunnyside » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:56 pm

I kinda like the Kennedy's idea of having regions or "highways" in warp space that allow for vastly faster travel in the proper conditions.

While not explicitly metioned, there are some in world angles on that I can think of. I can remember the name or episode, but I remember Voyager sliding into some region of space where they could go a whole lot faster. Also in DS9 there was some sort of tachyon current or something that drove a non-warp capable ship at warp speeds.

Perhaps a bit like the tradewinds and currents during the age of sail. Just obviously with even more variability in speed if you're going to try and keep all the cannon.

That said some of the Writer's technical guides had content on ship speeds. I'm betting that's what the Kennedy's put into the speed/distance calculator here on DITL. Those speeds are relatively slow, and go a long way to explaining why our hero's end up coming across colonies and civilizations that hadn't been visited by the Federation for in decades (centuries in some cases).

DS9 generally stuck to the "slow" speeds, which is why the war developed with fronts and having to hold territory to extend supply lines and things like that instead of being one big interstellar melee.

But a warp highway is just one example of Trek weirdness that could have humans on stars far before we should have been. Really it's hard to ever rule much of anything out in Trek.
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Re: Is the future bereft of culture?

Postby Teaos » Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:07 pm

I agree its a nice idea and works in universe pretty well, but unfortunately there isnt a lot of canon evidence for it, appart from the obvious speed differences.

The only semi plausible excuse I heard is that the old warp drive system was a lot faster, but did a lot of damage to subspace, so the Federation had to swap out the drives for one that goes a lot slower but does no damage. Its a choice between go fst for 100 years then tear up space so much you cant use it anymore, or go slower and preserve it.
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Re: Is the future bereft of culture?

Postby sunnyside » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:27 pm

Teaos wrote:The only semi plausible excuse I heard is that the old warp drive system was a lot faster, but did a lot of damage to subspace, so the Federation had to swap out the drives for one that goes a lot slower but does no damage. Its a choice between go fst for 100 years then tear up space so much you cant use it anymore, or go slower and preserve it.


There have been references to something about that I believe. The idea of too much warp travel with certain nacelle types or speed or something damaging and area. But it seems odd to not simply abandon the practice when the ship, the lives of billions, or the fate of the quadrant itself is at stake.

Also it would seem to require the other nearby races being willing to slow down too (or I suppose having vastly inferior technology).

I wonder if the writers ever even bothered to ponder this one.
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