Omnicommunicability

[Graham Kennedy]

Better yet, if they can't translate the language, how were they able to translate the indivdiual terms of the metaphors into "English" words?

Well that's the thing about Darmok, and it's a subtle point that most people miss. The Universal Translator WAS working. It did exactly what it was meant to do - turn what the aliens said into English.

When the Tamarian says "Darmok and Jalad on the ocean", he's actually using the Tamarian words for "and", "on", "the" and "ocean". The UT translated them into English perfectly. Trouble is, it doesn't help because the UT can't, in this case, render the meaning of those words since the Tamarians use language in a different way than we do.

As an aside, one scene I always wanted to see in Enterprise. Hoshi installs a new batch of subroutines in the UT and shows it off by talking English into it and having it speak Klingon or whatever. As she smiles, Porthos barks at Archer... and the UT says "I'm hungry... Want cheese..."

[Mikey]

Better yet: Porthos barks and the UT says, "Kill me... I can't stand that bastard..."

But yeah, that was my point about the UT - I can't see how, even if it can translate vocabulary, how it could instantly pick up on nuances of grammar, syntax, inflection, etc.

Tyyr - fair point about the hail. Another possibility is this: since computers throughout the galaxy in 'Trek work on similar principles, and computer security is universally non-existent, the hail may actually include a scan of the target ships cultural and linguistic database.

[Sionnach Glic]

Aye, that was one of the good things about Darmok.

Too bad it works perfectly in every other situation.

[Lazar]

I would love it if they could depict aliens speaking their own languages, with the UT providing a synthesized dub in English. It would probably be prohibitively difficult though.

[Tsukiyumi]

I would love it if they could depict aliens speaking their own languages, with the UT providing a synthesized dub in English. It would probably be prohibitively difficult though.

You mean budget-wise? I don't see how.

[Lazar]

Not budget-wise, but in terms of creating languages for all the races, and training the actors to deliver the lines.

[Tsukiyumi]

Not budget-wise, but in terms of creating languages for all the races, and training the actors to deliver the lines.

Psshaw. They could just make up gibberish, and have that dubbed over.

Do you mean we'd hear their language while it's dubbed over in English?

[Lazar]

Psshaw. They could just make up gibberish, and have that dubbed over.

That's true - for a typical alien of the week, you wouldn't really need to develop the language to any great extent, just have some syllables that sound half decent.

Do you mean we'd hear their language while it's dubbed over in English?

I was imagining something like what you see in international news, where there's a dubbed voice in English, but you can hear the person's own speech at a lower volume. I think it would be a much cooler and more realistic way to present aliens.

[Mikey]

I think it would be a much cooler and more realistic way to present aliens.

Agreed, but it could present some difficulties in the "watch-ability" from a TV standpoint.

[Nickswitz]

Tyyr - fair point about the hail. Another possibility is this: since computers throughout the galaxy in 'Trek work on similar principles, and computer security is universally non-existent, the hail may actually include a scan of the target ships cultural and linguistic database.

This is actually what I thought... I figured they just scanned the computer database of the other vessel.

[Tyyr]

I'm always hesitant to make stupid the default assumption. I like to assume that the necessary data is transferred intentionally rather than assuming they'll hack your database.

[Nickswitz]

That may be why they have to open hailing frequencies, like they open the stream of data for the information to be transfered.

[Bryan Moore]

In the extended universe, we basically get to understand that Hoshi and Uhura created a universal translation matrix that can essentially pick up things instantly. I forget which book (Kobayashi Maru, perhaps?), but a rather novel explanation was given for Hoshi's invention, but it does somewhat stink of "Quantum"

[Captain Picard's Hair]

Yeah, i noticed that about Darmok. What about idioms, colloquialisms, slang, etc? There was one case in TNG: "Lower Decks" in which one of the junior officers mentioned to the Bajoran officer the phrase "fly on the wall," to which she replied by asking if that's the same as a "spider under the table" (if I got that quote right) - whatever the Bajoran phrase was, that was a good example.

[Bryan Moore]

What I'm curious about, though, is Data's inability to make much sense out of the Tamarian language at first. I thought he had essentially infinite memory?