Roddenberry And Joseph

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:00 pm

Indeed. Though it's just odd how it's creator was the complete opposite of what his 'utopian' future was. Hell, he even fought during WW2 as a bomber pilot, IIRC.

Jordanis · Post by **Jordanis** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:01 pm

Yeah, but there was a draft going on. I've heard it said that his experiences in the military are the biggest reason he tried so hard to demilitarize Starfleet.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:12 pm

Oh, okay. I assumed he had volunteered.

Captain Picard's Hair · Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:14 pm

The problem I have isn't with a peaceful UFP philosophy, it's with the lack of common sense. In the universe Roddenberry created, the peaceful UFP i surrounded by hostile empires who don't share it's peaceful philosophy. It does need to have a competent military for no other reason than to ensure the safety and security vital to maintaining it's peaceful ways.

Jordanis · Post by **Jordanis** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:25 pm

Rochey wrote:Oh, okay. I assumed he had volunteered.

I don't actually know if he did or not, but there was a draft. The air corps during WWII was big enough that they certainly took draftees to fly, so.

Looking at the wikipedia article, it does actually look like he volunteered. That doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't affected that way by his experiences, though.

sunnyside · Post by **sunnyside** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:29 pm

Mikey wrote:Sure doesn't explain how he treated Majel, though.

What did he do to her?

Jordanis · Post by **Jordanis** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:36 pm

sunnyside wrote:
Mikey wrote:Sure doesn't explain how he treated Majel, though.
What did he do to her?

Well, he was never the most faithful man, for starters...

sunnyside · Post by **sunnyside** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:41 pm

If your relationship with someone starts by them cheating on a spouse to be with you I think it would be a blend of hypocritical and stupid to expect them to be totally faithful to you.

Post by **Mikey** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:22 pm

I didn't say that she shouldn't have expected it. It still deosn't make it right, however.

As for volunteering for the military, I don't have as big a problem with that. Patriotic propaganda was bigger then, and there was almost no dissenting publicity. It was considered the natural way of things for young men to enlist either instead of or before college, especially during the war, and especially to protect the "correct" American ideology against the "evil" Japanese and the truly evil Nazi regime.

What people didn't hear about as young men considering enlistment was the actual, day-to-day horror of war.

Captain Peabody · Post by **Captain Peabody** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:27 pm

Wait... are you saying you do have a problem with people volunteering now? I know several people who're in the military, one of which is in Iraq...

Captain Picard's Hair · Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:36 pm

I have a cousin who has joined the US Army and is now seeking to join the special forces (Green Berets)

Monroe · Post by **Monroe** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:59 am

Mikey wrote:I didn't say that she shouldn't have expected it. It still deosn't make it right, however.

As for volunteering for the military, I don't have as big a problem with that. Patriotic propaganda was bigger then, and there was almost no dissenting publicity. It was considered the natural way of things for young men to enlist either instead of or before college, especially during the war, and especially to protect the "correct" American ideology against the "evil" Japanese and the truly evil Nazi regime.

What people didn't hear about as young men considering enlistment was the actual, day-to-day horror of war.

What do you mean 'Evil'?

And I joined the military...

Far as peaceful people in the military, Ghandi was a vet.

sunnyside · Post by **sunnyside** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:25 am

I presume he means that while he considers the Nazis truly evil the millions of killed Chinese and other Asians, forced prostitution, and some other more flavorful activities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

don't quite qualify Japan as actually evil. And that it was trumped up by American propaganda.

I'll grant that they didn't quite take it to the level of the Nazis. But I generally think the Japanese crimes are so much less infamous because their atrocities were committed against racial groups that the western powers didn't care as much about at the time and, in comparison, still.

Post by **Mikey** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:51 am

STOP!

Don't put words in my mouth! If anyone would care to start either reading the context in which my post was written or trying to use a little common sense, I wouldn't have to bother clarifying myself against these obtuse, knee-jerk comments. Well, since that happens to be the case:

First, I have no problem with anyone enlisting in the military. It's not the right fit for me, but I applaud anyone who does. If anyone cared to notice, we were discussing Gene Roddenberry, and people had mentioned how they thought his voluntary enlistment was at odds with some of his apparent ideology.

Second, I referred to Japan as "evil" rather than as evil because many of the nasty things of which Japan could be accused could be attributed to the US as well. Something about glass houses and stones. If anyone cared to notice (yes, I've been forced to use that phrase a lot!) I was making a point about public "common knowledge" at the outset of the war, much of which included mistruths and fallacies. I used an unaltered form of the word for Germany because one of the STATED, OVERT goals of its government was racially, religiously, and politically motivated genocides.

Going forward, let's all please try to actually read and understand what's been written BEFORE basing a hip-shot response on a willful misinterpretation, shall we?

PS - Sunnyside: that sarcastic tone and pasting that link are certainly not constructive. Don't presume that you have so much more knowledge than anyone else simply because you deliberately misread a comment.

I presume he means

Is where you started to go wrong. If you have no idea what I mean, then ask - don't make %@$* up.

sunnyside · Post by **sunnyside** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:15 am

I said I presumed i.e. "to dare or venture without prior knowledge" because I couldn't be 100% sure what you meant. I figured you'd elaborate. Yeah, I could have phrased it in a more friendly manner.

But what I didn't do was get pissed, and it was a little tempting.

However I have friends from Asia whose response to your quotes would probably be along the lines of "going apesh*t"

Regardless. You're a smart guy Mikey. You had to know that your statement was interjecting political commentary while skirting sensitive issues. That sort of thing is likely to stir up something if the other people don't agree with you, feel strongly about something, or if your phrasing implies something they find offensive.

Same goes for

"I referred to Japan as "evil" rather than as evil because many of the nasty things of which Japan could be accused could be attributed to the US as well. Something about glass houses and stones. "

So please consider how you might react if someone called the Nazis ""evil"", cool it with the righteous indignation, and bring your own tone down to a civil level. I'll do the same. The other guys were actually quite nice about it, as these things go.

Though on your above comment I'll agree with you only in the context of viewing the US over the entirety of its history. i.e. the treatment of the Native Americans and slaves. However I don't think that skeletons in one countries closet makes the actions of a different country at a particular time any less evil, even relative to the country with the skeletons in the closet. And your use of quotes implies "not really evil" even if that isn't what you mean.