On starfleet and exploration vs blowing things up

[sunnyside]

A reaccuring theme in many discussion here is that a number of people feel that starfleet is basically nuts. Clearly they should scrap these silly long range multipourpose exploration ships and build packs of defiant type ships. Just maybe bigger, for the purposes of blowing things up. Others don't. I figured it could use it's own thread.

I propose that what Starfleet does is actually the prudent thing for a couple reasons.

1. Force multiplying. One ship fights like one ship. If that one ship instead adds another system to the federation than for the same resources you've got a bunch of ships fighting for you.

For this you need ships with range and diplomatic capability. Or you need a conquring fleet but then you've got another battle and the system may decide they want to take their chances with the Rommies.

This is why starfleet is the biggest power in the area despite being the new kid on the block.

2. New technology. When you just stay within your own boarders you miss out on a lot. It isn't too hard to imagine that a starfleet that turns in on itself would be like Japan when they did something similar. Sure you have the warrior mentality and your swords are the finest in the land, but everybody else is using cannons.

And there is a lot of new technology out there. Voyager seemed to be able to pick something up from a lot of different species even if their overal tech level seemed lower than the federation.

3. You want to be the first to the fell artifacts of incredible power. And there seem to be a lot of them out there. Planets that turn people into incredibly powerful psychics, the Guardian of Forever, wickedly powerful new species, all sorts of stuff. And none of it do you want in klingon hands.

4. Sometimes it's important to be the good guy. I mean there are Q out there and stuff.


And a tounge in cheek 5. You might as well go for the advantages of the above 4 things because if the federation ever does fall the Voyager writing staff will just keep violating the temporal prime directive until it's all better.

[Monroe]

I still say the Federation should make clusters of 3 ships working together depending on the mission. If you're going to use a defensive ship why have something that is a hybrid when you can have three defense ships working together. Exploration put an exploring ship with military escorts. Makes a lot more sense than gigantic hybrids and is a lot more cost effective. You also get the best of both worlds.

[mlsnoopy]

I still say the Federation should make clusters of 3 ships working together depending on the mission. If you're going to use a defensive ship why have something that is a hybrid when you can have three defense ships working together. Exploration put an exploring ship with military escorts. Makes a lot more sense than gigantic hybrids and is a lot more cost effective. You also get the best of both worlds.

Warbird a "gigantic hybrid".
Negvar a "gigantic hybrid".
Dominion battelship a "gigantic hybrid".
Son'a a "gigantic hybrid".
Scimitar a "gigantic hybrid".

You need big ships to take on big ships. And as I remember the Galaxis performed well in the Dominion war.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Grouping ships together, like what Monroe is suggesting, sounds good on paper but could kill any negotiation. A show of force like that shows you have a full time military ready to kill at a moments notice. Many would take this as a threat to "join or die". It also gives the impression of an invasion force. A single ship on the other hand wouldn't seem as threatening even if it had the same firepower.

[Jordanis]

There's that consideration, and the other problem is that a Nova or Oberth or whatever is vulnerable even with escorts. Trek ships fight at beam ranges and show no evidence of point defense, so the escort can't actually protect the science ship in any meaningful way except to fly between it and the enemy. That might not even work, if the enemy is faster on his metaphorical feet.

And if you're attacked by a group of small ships, that science vessel is REALLY doomed.

[Mikey]

I have been a vocal proponent of (at least) separating the paramilitary and scientific arms of Starfleet, but I'm about to say something a little contrary to that.

Those science ships are helpless. They are useful only within secured space, or in areas that are shown to be devoid of warp-capable civilization. Once you make them capable of useful self-defense, you have a well-armed explorer - right back at the germ of the debate.

That said, I still believe that there should be a semi-separate force of warships, and more well-armed explorer should still be considered an explorer. You like the GCS? Then have your explorer models; then make others without the five-star hotel accomodations and no civvie quarters, and attach those ones to the "war" fleet.

[Jordanis]

That said, I still believe that there should be a semi-separate force of warships, and more well-armed explorer should still be considered an explorer. You like the GCS? Then have your explorer models; then make others without the five-star hotel accomodations and no civvie quarters, and attach those ones to the "war" fleet.

I actually think that a lot of the smaller Starfleet ships are like that--they're too small for meaningful diplomatic or scientific facilities, and too small to really support a crew long-term with high morale. The Mirandas, Akiras, Steamrunners, Sabers, and the like.

[Jim]

The problem is not whether it makes sence or not, it is that it would be a major change at a fundimental level for Star Fleet. THey do not consider themselves to be a "military" group, they are an exploration and peace group. They are more the UN than the USA. Yes, the UN has a military component, as does Star Fleet. However, that is not their #1 purpose.

[Mikey]

I agree. However, the fact of the matter is that when military necessity does happen, it is Starfleet who must bear it. If they continue to hide their heads in the sand from this fact, it will end up badly sooner or later.

[Deepcrush]

It did end up badly! Have you not heard of the dominion war?

[Granitehewer]

Can we all petition ''Dark Omen'' to draw us a little battlescene of sovereigns and akiras hammering a dominion dreadnought? :-p drool

[Jim]

I agree. However, the fact of the matter is that when military necessity does happen, it is Starfleet who must bear it. If they continue to hide their heads in the sand from this fact, it will end up badly sooner or later.

I believe they simply feel that as their ships are "multipurpose" that thay are good enought to fight when things turn ugly.

[Mikey]

But they weren't. If weren't for the engineered virus - i.e., if the Dominion War were to be determined simply on the basis of military capability, the UFP would be a commonwealth of the Dominion by now.

[mlsnoopy]

It did end up badly! Have you not heard of the dominion war?

You mean the war that Federation won becuse of their diplomatic skills. Against an enemy that had unlimited man power and record ship building speeds. The war where the Dominion rammed more ships then shoot out of space.

And if I'm not mistaken no gsc was destroyed since Odesey.

[Jim]

But they weren't. If weren't for the engineered virus - i.e., if the Dominion War were to be determined simply on the basis of military capability, the UFP would be a commonwealth of the Dominion by now.

I didn't say that they "are" good enought. I just said they "feel" they are good enough. That's what happens when you have a bunch of tree-huggers in control. Earth has not hunger, no money, no homelessness, NO WAR. You can not expect a people that did that, and is used to it, to simply do a 180 and start thinking on a military/war mindset. They want peace and exploration, not dominance. They feel that ships where military might is basically secondary, but yet still powerful, is good enough.