Destiny Trilogy...

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Re: Destiny Trilogy...

Post by Graham Kennedy »

Jim wrote:So... what was the origin of the Borg? V'Ger?
Newp.

It's very convoluted.
The Caeliar are this incredibly advanced species who are fiercely isolationist. They're very hard to find, and typically those who find them are either displaced to some distant galaxy where they can't trouble the Caeliar or tell anybody about them, or simply kept prisoner forever. That's what happens to the NX-02 - the ship is badly damaged in a Romulan attack, the survivors make it to the Caeliar home planet, and most of them are kept there ever after. The Caeliar even suggest that if they did escape they would displace the whole human race to another galaxy to keep them from spreading information about the Caeliar.

The Caeliar technology is based on "catoms", which are able to rearrange matter on pretty much any scale or level. They can build or rebuild pretty much anything, including their own bodies, just by thinking about it.

In an attempt to escape from the Caeliar homeworld, some of the NX-02's MACOS damage an important machine, part of the Caeliar's "great work" - a machine designed to be able to scan every part of the entire universe simultaneously. In damaging it the machine detects a feedback pulse from a species in a distant galaxy that destroys the machine and causes the sun to go supernova. Most of the Caeliar cities are destroyed, but two are thrown through space and time. One goes back to the early universe... and ultimately evolves to become the species that sent the pulse in the first place, which they did in order that their own existence could happen as it did originally!

The other is a tiny handful of survivors, a few Caeliar and a few MACOs, who are thrown some thousands of years into the past in the delta quadrant. They are stranded on a planet in an arctic environment. The Caeliar catoms were powered centrally from an Omega molecule reactor, so with no power for them and no food for the MACOs they're all in a bad way. The Caeliar suggest that they could bond with the MACOs and use their neural energy to power the catoms, but the MACOs refuse. They all spend a few weeks there gradually starving to death, to the point where the Caeliar cannibalise one another. The last Caeliar left is eventually reduced to a "state of pure hunger" - with the catoms failing it's lost all memory of what it is, lost most of it's personality, and just become this limitless hunger for more energy. It forcibly bonds with the surviving MACOs, converting the remaining catoms into much larger and cruder (and less energy dependent) nanoprobes to do so. The bonding destroys their individuality and creates the first Borg.

This is why the Borg are so driven to assimilate - because deep inside the collective is a hunger that can never be satisfied. It's also why the Borg are so obsessed by the Omega molecule - that's their original energy source, and they ahve a dim sense that they could get it all back if only they had that power again.

Erika Hernandez lived with the Caeliar for a long time and converted her own body to use catoms. In the end she allows herself to be assimilated by the Borg so that her catoms can join with the Borg nanoprobes and allow the Caeliar to join with the collective in one giant group mind. The Caeliar dissolve the remaining shreds of the original Caeliar within the collective, removing its desire to assimilate. They then dissolve all of the nanotech in every Borg drone, freeing them all. End of the Borg, for good.
...I told you it was convoluted!
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Re: Destiny Trilogy...

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Overly pointlessly convoluted and for the love of all that's holy will they stop FUCKING WITH THE BORG!
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Re: Destiny Trilogy...

Post by Griffin »

Haven't read it but from what you've said about it GK it seems like fanwanky bollocks to be honest.
Last edited by Griffin on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Destiny Trilogy...

Post by Tyyr »

I haven't read the Destiny series, however based off what I've read with regards to the plot, how things are handled, etc. it's Vong'ed the Star Trek EU for me.
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Re: Destiny Trilogy...

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Tyyr wrote:Overly pointlessly convoluted and for the love of all that's holy will they stop FUCKING WITH THE BORG!
Well you will not like the ending then.
The Borg are absorbed back into Caelier in a final showdown. No Borg... ever.
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Re: Destiny Trilogy...

Post by Tyyr »

I know about the ending, and it's as stupid as the rest of the premise.
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Re: Destiny Trilogy...

Post by McAvoy »

I personally do not mind as it is original. There was time and effort in writing it and there is no reset button. The post-Destiny books are interesting as it deals with the aftermath of the Borg's rampage.
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Re: Destiny Trilogy...

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I personally do not mind as it is original. There was time and effort in writing it and there is no reset button.
Doesn't make it not stupid. You can be original and put a lot of time and effort into writing it and it still be idiotic. Re: Twilight.

Is it original? Most needlessly complex things are. Why? Because people have already probably done the not stupid things.

The Ceilar? Ohh, another race of omnipotent superbeings. Don't we already have a few of those? BUT WAIT! These are even more super duper special than the Q or the other ones! They live off... ummm, atoms? No, that's stupid... wait, their name starts with a C so, CATOMs! Their like atoms, but with cats. Cats so awesome that they can do super amazing special stuff even cooler than the Q. And Enterprise is in here because... and then there's the Borg because everyone likes the Borg! And lets have them totally stop acting like the Borg and be all "WERE GONNA GET U!" and rawwwrrrr they attack and all the Star Trek species are like "OH NO U DONT!" And boom they get blowd up good and the Borg just blast everybody and everyone's like "OH 2 TEH NOES!" But then the super special totally not Q Cat atom people are like what's that light and it's like Time Travel because that's the best part of Star Trek (IV was teh awesomest) so it's like paradoxicals up in this bitch and the cat atoms people turn into zombies and eat each other then RAWR try to chomp the Macos cause the Macos are super cool and then they're all "WE ARE TEH BORGZ N00BS!" But then everything is all fucked up so the captain of the NX-02 tells the omnipotent cat atom people that the Borg are bad and them because time travel and omniscience works best if you don't think about it and then all the Borg were real little cat atom people. The End.

Seriously, this is the Vong all over again. A really, really poorly thought out way to "Reboot" the series and "Change Everything."
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Re: Destiny Trilogy...

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Tyyr wrote:Their like atoms, but with cats. Cats so awesome that they can do super amazing special stuff even cooler than the Q.
So the solution is ice cream then?
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Re: Destiny Trilogy...

Post by Graham Kennedy »

I really enjoyed the books. Not the greatest Trek books I've ever read, but certainly up there.

And no, the Caeliar aren't anything like as powerful as the Q. Never said they were. In fact in power terms they're probably around the dividing line between "ordinary" life and the transdimensional energy creatures like Organians and Q.

The "Borg not acting like Borg" really doesn't bother me. The one recurring complaint about the Borg has always been "Why do they just keep sending one cube at a time!" Well, now they don't. And yes, they take a hard line finally - this is just after Voyager obliterated their entire transwarp network.

And the baby talk really doesn't make the books any worse.
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Re: Destiny Trilogy...

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I really enjoyed the books. Not the greatest Trek books I've ever read, but certainly up there.
Then congratulations. You enjoyed them.
And no, the Caeliar aren't anything like as powerful as the Q. Never said they were. In fact in power terms they're probably around the dividing line between "ordinary" life and the transdimensional energy creatures like Organians and Q.
Every description I've ever heard of their race puts them in the Q's level. Flinging entire species into other galaxies, building omniscience machines, that's Q level stuff. Sure, it lacks a bit of the flair of Q casually tossing around his powers by snapping his fingers but nothing they threaten or are capable of is remotely possible for any race even the Voth. The only individuals or groups we've seen capable of such feats have been people like the Prophets or Q. Hell the Caeliar's threats are well above anything we've seen the Q pull off.
The "Borg not acting like Borg" really doesn't bother me. The one recurring complaint about the Borg has always been "Why do they just keep sending one cube at a time!" Well, now they don't. And yes, they take a hard line finally - this is just after Voyager obliterated their entire transwarp network.
It bothers the shit out of me. Like it or not the, "Why don't they just send a dozen cubes and be done with it," question was out of the box in TNG. After the bulk of TNG, First Contact, and Voyager we're well past the point when the Borg should have just run the Alpha quadrant over. Yeah, Voyager blew up the transwarp network. So instead of finding a way to bring the Borg back into it let Voyager have saved the day and bought the Alpha quadrant a few decades of Borg free peace to prepare for them. Have the Borg suddenly fragment with out instantaneous long range transport. Do something interesting with them. No, instead we'll have them act completely against character and then once thing are totally fucked we'll Deus ex Machina one of the most developed bad guys in the setting right out of existence.

Not to mention a rather straight forward race that doesn't need an incredibly convoluted backstory suddenly gains one that amazingly entertwines them with the Borg. Catoms? Omega molecule, pure hunger, cannibalization, cat atoms turning into nanoprobes, does this not sound like bad fanfic to you? If that doesn't then how the Borg get wiped out does.

Sorry, but they Vong'd Star Trek. You had a post-Dominion War, post-Romulus prime timeline to work with and instead of running with that and keeping the Prime Timeline going they do... this. In order to satisfy the need for a big event to tie everything together they wipe out the Borg, introduce another nearly omnipotent race, and fuck the Alpha quadrant up. So yeah, for me personally they looked at what could have been an incredibly interesting time to set Trek in and chucked it out the window in favor of a comic book style "event".

Seriously, fuck the Destiny books. They did to Trek what the Vong did to Wars for me.
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Re: Destiny Trilogy...

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Tyyr wrote:
I really enjoyed the books. Not the greatest Trek books I've ever read, but certainly up there.
Then congratulations. You enjoyed them.
Thanks.
Every description I've ever heard of their race puts them in the Q's level.
Then every description you ever heard of their race is incorrect.
Flinging entire species into other galaxies, building omniscience machines, that's Q level stuff. Sure, it lacks a bit of the flair of Q casually tossing around his powers by snapping his fingers but nothing they threaten or are capable of is remotely possible for any race even the Voth. The only individuals or groups we've seen capable of such feats have been people like the Prophets or Q. Hell the Caeliar's threats are well above anything we've seen the Q pull off.
It's rather a big difference, that being able to do it by snapping your fingers. Caeliar are indeed extremely powerful, but that is because they have and use extremely powerful technology - powered by the Omega molecule, a substance we know in Trek as a real one that anybody could harness, at least in theory. Deprived of that technology they are severely limited - and will ultimately wither and die. Do you think a Q could ever say "um, no, sorry but I can't get out of here because I'm out of power"? Do you think a Q could starve to death?
It bothers the shit out of me.
It bothers you? Then congratulations to you, too.
Like it or not the, "Why don't they just send a dozen cubes and be done with it," question was out of the box in TNG. After the bulk of TNG, First Contact, and Voyager we're well past the point when the Borg should have just run the Alpha quadrant over.
Exactly. And now we see that they decide to do just that. And suddenly now the fact that they're doing it becomes a problem?
Yeah, Voyager blew up the transwarp network. So instead of finding a way to bring the Borg back into it let Voyager have saved the day and bought the Alpha quadrant a few decades of Borg free peace to prepare for them. Have the Borg suddenly fragment with out instantaneous long range transport. Do something interesting with them. No, instead we'll have them act completely against character and then once thing are totally fucked we'll Deus ex Machina one of the most developed bad guys in the setting right out of existence.
The Borg are developed poorly, IMO. They suffer the fate of all near unbeatable enemies - your heroes keep beating them, and each time they do the enemy looks less and less dangerous and more and more foolish and incompetent. It was getting ridiculous to have Voyager take them on and win time and again. Having one last blaze of glory that revives them as a real threat and then disposes of them for good was the right thing to do.
Not to mention a rather straight forward race that doesn't need an incredibly convoluted backstory suddenly gains one that amazingly entertwines them with the Borg. Catoms? Omega molecule, pure hunger, cannibalization, cat atoms turning into nanoprobes, does this not sound like bad fanfic to you? If that doesn't then how the Borg get wiped out does.
No, it really doesn't sound like that to me. No more than warp drive and transporters and shields and nanoprobes in the first place.
You had a post-Dominion War, post-Romulus prime timeline to work with and instead of running with that and keeping the Prime Timeline going they do... this. In order to satisfy the need for a big event to tie everything together they wipe out the Borg, introduce another nearly omnipotent race, and fuck the Alpha quadrant up. So yeah, for me personally they looked at what could have been an incredibly interesting time to set Trek in and chucked it out the window in favor of a comic book style "event".
The post Dominion Trek verse looked pretty dull to me. The big powers at peace with one another, the Dominion gone. Boring. It needed shaking up, and Destiny shook it HARD. And from what I've heard the follow on stuff with the Typhon Pact sounds pretty interesting too.
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Re: Destiny Trilogy...

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Nutso wrote: They are something that makes Striker angry. Last time someone brought this up, he was cussing and ranting all over the place.
Yes, yes they are. :) :bangwall: !ouch) :madashell:
Sonic Glitch wrote: Wait for it...
Wait for what, the memories of these complete and utter wastes of trees and ink and glue to be brought up once more, these unmitigated poxes upon literature that took a promising, long-range future for the Star Wars EU and fucking FLUSHED it down the toilet for an entire species of Mary Sues that would make an armada of Adrics, Wesleys and Jar Jars palatable? The horrific character assassination and just plain assassination of characters for pure fucking shock value that were mentioned and forgotten in almost the SAME paragraph?

That they took the characters of the YJK, the book series that got me INTO SW, took all the characters from that series and ruined them? Destroyed the dreams of Han, Leia and Luke? Not to mention the series is misnamed. New Jedi Order? I think a lot of them were killed off as prequelitis took over. Yes, copy the PT Jedi Order, Luke. Great idea! Here's a nice shiny sun rock for you, too. You fucking moron!!!!

Oh, and of course the topper, the capper. Borsk 'I make cliched Nixon look honest' Fey'lya as president of the New Republic. Borsk. Fey'lya. A Bothan who should've been impeached the second after taking the oath of office and the votes recounted by someone who could count above twenty. Who almost won the war for the Vong. Along with the rest of the Senate, who decided genocidal psychopaths who repeatedly declared and showed their willingless to exterminate all other non-Vong lifeforms. Yes, of course you can work with them in good faith, especially after they bio-nuked Ithor.

And... I need to stop now. I think I need to watch some Mister Rogers.
Reliant121 wrote:Was quite a shock to see, actually. Never seen him express more than mild annoyance and these books seem to generate a boiling rage.
*Looks up at wall o' text* Yeah... they do that to me on occasion. :oops:

Oh, Caeliar? Don't like them. Wasn't too fond of the rampant destruction, but at least unlike with the... post-NJO it seemed to matter in subsequent books.
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Re: Destiny Trilogy...

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I actually forced myself to read those Vong books. Why? I was brand new in the Navy and living in the barracks with nothing but clothes on back, but the NEX had these books for sale cheap.

You ever read something that basically you are physically reading but your mind wanders off on it's own? By the time you snap out of it, you read two pages? Yeah that was me with these books.
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Re: Destiny Trilogy...

Post by RK_Striker_JK_5 »

That's happened to me, McAvoy. More than once IIRC.
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