Is Bigger better

Trek Books, Games and General chat
User avatar
Teaos
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15368
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:00 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: Behind you!

Is Bigger better

Post by Teaos »

A question I was thinking about in relation to the Gorn and Tholians and the threat they can pose to the Federation.

The Federation may very well be X times bigger than these smaller powers with X times as many ships.

But since their space is also X times larger with Y times as many planets to guard and boarders to watch they cant bring all this force against them.

So well organised smaller power could realistically pose quite a problem for them. They would never take over the whole Federation, but they could very well claim victories in small wars dispite beign grossly out matched on paper.
What does defeat mean to you?

Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.
stitch626
2 Star Admiral
2 Star Admiral
Posts: 9585
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:57 pm
Location: NY
Contact:

Re: Is Bigger better

Post by stitch626 »

Bigger is better doesn't scale as well in space as it does on land, because there is a lot less resource per cubic whatever in space than there is in square whatever on land. So there is a lot more to patrol with diminishing % resources to supply said patrol.
No trees were killed in transmission of this message. However, some electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
User avatar
Teaos
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15368
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:00 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: Behind you!

Re: Is Bigger better

Post by Teaos »

And its not like they can pull all their starships from other areas to come deal with the threat since that would leave other boarders open, creating a cascading boarder failure.
What does defeat mean to you?

Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 11561
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK
Contact:

Re: Is Bigger better

Post by Graham Kennedy »

A lot would depend on just how large scale combat works in a strategic sense. For example, if the Federation is huge then an enemy attacking into them might end up like Germany invading Russia - the Federation pulling back and back whilst the enemy supply lines stretched out and thinned.

Or would they? Does a Trek fleet actually need supply lines as such? The ships appear to have more or less indefinite range and seem to need very little in the way of refit or support from external sources. Spares and such can be replicated and work on more or less any scale seems to be possible from the ship's own resources - hell, B'Elanna even talked about mining the raw materials and manufacturing new warp coils for Voyager. And any ship could carry umpteen thousands of photon casings in the cargo bays, which is the only real expendable item they use in combat.

There are a lot of unknowns about how combat would work on that level, so it's difficult to do much more than guess.
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
User avatar
Teaos
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15368
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:00 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: Behind you!

Re: Is Bigger better

Post by Teaos »

Morally I cant see the Federation pulling back and lettings its population deal with invaders.
What does defeat mean to you?

Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.
stitch626
2 Star Admiral
2 Star Admiral
Posts: 9585
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:57 pm
Location: NY
Contact:

Re: Is Bigger better

Post by stitch626 »

Teaos wrote:Morally I cant see the Federation pulling back and lettings its population deal with invaders.
Didn't they do that during the Dominion War with Batezed?
No trees were killed in transmission of this message. However, some electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Is Bigger better

Post by Captain Seafort »

They apparently did it with the Borg as well - "They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back."
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
User avatar
Teaos
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15368
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:00 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: Behind you!

Re: Is Bigger better

Post by Teaos »

Batazoid was taken in a suprise attack that they didnt see coming, they didnt exactly pull back.

And the Federation has never once pulled back from the Borg, individual ships have retreated, but the Federation has never surrenedered a single planet or system to the Borg.
What does defeat mean to you?

Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Is Bigger better

Post by Captain Seafort »

Teaos wrote:And the Federation has never once pulled back from the Borg, individual ships have retreated, but the Federation has never surrenedered a single planet or system to the Borg.
Picard's statement contradicts that. He was admittedly having a bit of a sense of humour failure at the time, but the basic statement stands.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 11561
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK
Contact:

Re: Is Bigger better

Post by Graham Kennedy »

Teaos wrote:Morally I cant see the Federation pulling back and lettings its population deal with invaders.
I think the people of Betazed might disagree.
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
User avatar
Teaos
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15368
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:00 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: Behind you!

Re: Is Bigger better

Post by Teaos »

They didnt pull back, they were taken by suprise and lost the planet. They didnt let it get taken by choice.
What does defeat mean to you?

Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.
Sonic Glitch
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
Posts: 6026
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:11 am
Location: Any ol' place here on Earth or in space. You pick the century and I'll pick the spot

Re: Is Bigger better

Post by Sonic Glitch »

GrahamKennedy wrote:
Teaos wrote:Morally I cant see the Federation pulling back and lettings its population deal with invaders.
I think the people of Betazed might disagree.
There's a difference between "We can't defeat the invasion" and "purposefully retreating to let the population deal with it." All indications are that Betazed was a surprise attack for which they weren't prepared that they weren't prepared for* (who expects your mostly stalemated enemy to suddenly strike one of your core systems?)

*edited for preposition
"All this has happened before --"
"But it doesn't have to happen again. Not if we make up our minds to change. Take a different path. Right here, right now."
Sonic Glitch
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
Posts: 6026
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:11 am
Location: Any ol' place here on Earth or in space. You pick the century and I'll pick the spot

Re: Is Bigger better

Post by Sonic Glitch »

Captain Seafort wrote:
Teaos wrote:And the Federation has never once pulled back from the Borg, individual ships have retreated, but the Federation has never surrenedered a single planet or system to the Borg.
Picard's statement contradicts that. He was admittedly having a bit of a sense of humour failure at the time, but the basic statement stands.
Also I think Picard was referring to the fact that they never take the fight to the Borg, never went on the offensive (presumably to rid the galaxy of those horrid things). Rather, the Federation/Starfleet knows the Borg are out there and knows what they are doing to other civilizations and does nothing until the threat is pointed at them.
"All this has happened before --"
"But it doesn't have to happen again. Not if we make up our minds to change. Take a different path. Right here, right now."
User avatar
Teaos
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15368
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:00 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: Behind you!

Re: Is Bigger better

Post by Teaos »

Also, Picard was nuts. That statement cant be taken as fact.
What does defeat mean to you?

Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.
RK_Striker_JK_5
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
Posts: 12986
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:27 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award, Cochrane Medal of Excellence
Location: New Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Is Bigger better

Post by RK_Striker_JK_5 »

Picard was in full-on Ahab mode. I'm not taking what he said literally.
Post Reply