Where are all the other civilizations?

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Re: Where are all the other civilizations?

Postby Teaos » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:02 pm

I think it is stated several times they have slave worlds. Given how large their territory is I dont see how it is possible for them not to have vassels under them.
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Re: Where are all the other civilizations?

Postby Deepcrush » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:32 am

Captain Seafort wrote:So? The Federation, to all intents and purposes, is the same, given the massive centralisation around Earth.


Hence the lack of drive as I stated. Read the statement.

Captain Seafort wrote:Really? When was the size of the Romulan fleet ever specified, or even hinted at?


I never said anything about their fleet size, read the above statement. I said that it appears to be on the weaker side of the Klingons. Their constant failings against the Dominion and their future and quick defeat at the hands of the Klingons shows that the RSE isn't really as much a powerhouse as they like people to believe. It fits however with their Battleship mentality of trying to scare people with scale but largely being unwilling to commit to mass conflicts.

Captain Seafort wrote:And this is supported by what evidence exactly?


Number of worlds, related to resources, related to ability of results. Seriously seafort, did you even read a single word of anything you just quoted or are you just trolling again?
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Re: Where are all the other civilizations?

Postby Deepcrush » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:37 am

Teaos wrote:I think it is stated several times they have slave worlds. Given how large their territory is I dont see how it is possible for them not to have vassels under them.


We know that the Klingons have vassals, we've seen them several times. But the Klingons seem pretty good at pushing their resources.
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Re: Where are all the other civilizations?

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:25 pm

Deepcrush wrote:Hence the lack of drive as I stated. Read the statement.


You stated that the Feds have 180 worlds (it's actually 150, but the difference is trivial) while the Klingons have one. I'm pointing out that in terms of heavily industrialised worlds they're equal. The fact that the Klingon Empire was treated as an equal of the Federation during TOS, a period when the Federation was much more heavily militarised than TNG and therefore unlikely to leave any potential advantage untapped, demonstrates that the most likely scenario is that the Klingons have a similar number of lesser industrial bases to the Feds.

I never said anything about their fleet size, read the above statement. I said that it appears to be on the weaker side of the Klingons.


Fair enough - I was simply conflating your statements regarding their weakness and having "a few powerful ships", which I interpreted as the small number of the latter being the main cause of the former.

Their constant failings against the Dominion and their future and quick defeat at the hands of the Klingons shows that the RSE isn't really as much a powerhouse as they like people to believe. It fits however with their Battleship mentality of trying to scare people with scale but largely being unwilling to commit to mass conflicts.


What constant failings? On the contrary, the Romulans' entry into the war was a turning point that was leading rapidly towards the Dominion's defeat, despite their position of great strength prior to their involvement. During TNG the Feds were constantly tripping over themselves to avoid annoying the Romulans, despite numerous NZ violations

Number of worlds, related to resources, related to ability of results.


Really? So how many worlds does the RSE have, and in which episode was this information revealed?
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Re: Where are all the other civilizations?

Postby Sonic Glitch » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:35 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Deepcrush wrote:Hence the lack of drive as I stated. Read the statement.


You stated that the Feds have 180 worlds (it's actually 150, but the difference is trivial) while the Klingons have one. I'm pointing out that in terms of heavily industrialised worlds they're equal. The fact that the Klingon Empire was treated as an equal of the Federation during TOS, a period when the Federation was much more heavily militarised than TNG and therefore unlikely to leave any potential advantage untapped, demonstrates that the most likely scenario is that the Klingons have a similar number of lesser industrial bases to the Feds.

I'm just going to point out that Picard states in First Contact, "over 150" ... (spread a cross 800 light years).

http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie8.html

And the Klingons were treated as equals, until one of their energy moons exploded and that was apparently enough to cripple them.
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Re: Where are all the other civilizations?

Postby Mikey » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:06 pm

Nitpick: I thought the crippling effect from the disaster on Praxis was due to environmental damage to Q'oNos, not to the loss of Praxis itself. Prolly doesn't change the main point, but just sayin'.
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Re: Where are all the other civilizations?

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:11 pm

Mikey wrote:Nitpick: I thought the crippling effect from the disaster on Praxis was due to environmental damage to Q'oNos, not to the loss of Praxis itself. Prolly doesn't change the main point, but just sayin'.


The loss of Praxis in and of itself was a serious blow - Sulu described it as "their key energy production facility".
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Re: Where are all the other civilizations?

Postby Mikey » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:18 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Mikey wrote:Nitpick: I thought the crippling effect from the disaster on Praxis was due to environmental damage to Q'oNos, not to the loss of Praxis itself. Prolly doesn't change the main point, but just sayin'.


The loss of Praxis in and of itself was a serious blow - Sulu described it as "their key energy production facility".


True, but I thought the imminent danger to the Empire was the environmental blow to the Klingon homeworld itself. Been a while, I could be wrong.
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Re: Where are all the other civilizations?

Postby Teaos » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:29 pm

Probably both. Environmental catastrophe and the main power source going at once. Any one they may have been able to deal with, but both pushed them off the deep in.
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Re: Where are all the other civilizations?

Postby Granitehewer » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:49 pm

I'm sure there is a quote from a Romulan officer about the Romulans successfully repelling every Dominion incursion into their territory (if anyone can find it I promise to always love you), that they simultaneously attacked 15 Dominion bases and that Shinzon alone had at least twelve victories against the Dominion...so I wouldn't say that the Romulans were rather weak.
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Re: Where are all the other civilizations?

Postby Granitehewer » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:56 pm

I think it was Senator Letant in Tears of the Prophets
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Re: Where are all the other civilizations?

Postby Mikey » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:14 am

That quote may indicate Romulan strength, or it may just indicate Romulan braggadoccio.
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Re: Where are all the other civilizations?

Postby Captain Seafort » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:07 pm

Mikey wrote:That quote may indicate Romulan strength, or it may just indicate Romulan braggadoccio.


More likely the former, since it's unlikely that Sisko, Ross or Martok would have let them get away with throwing around claims like that with no evidence. It's even more unlikely that all three of them would have done so.
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Re: Where are all the other civilizations?

Postby Coalition » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:23 am

Granitehewer wrote:I'm sure there is a quote from a Romulan officer about the Romulans successfully repelling every Dominion incursion into their territory (if anyone can find it I promise to always love you), that they simultaneously attacked 15 Dominion bases and that Shinzon alone had at least twelve victories against the Dominion...so I wouldn't say that the Romulans were rather weak.


Don't know about the Romulans repelling every attack into their territory, but for a race that uses cloaks like crazy, I'd expect their space to be noting but a giant set of ambushes. Cloaked stations beaming cargo into space for a cloaked vessel to pick up, sensors tracking everything, and constant plans for ambushes being refined over the years/decades/centuries.

As to the attacks, I'd expect that it was right after the Romulans discovered the secret Dominion plans to attack them, so the attacks were a surprise. Amazingly, there were no Dominion fleets in the area to defend against a Romulan incursion, very sloppy of the Dominion if you ask me ;)

As to Shinzon, memory-alpha has him as a great tactician, but no source cited.
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Re: Where are all the other civilizations?

Postby Granitehewer » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:08 pm

They should cloak their cloaking devices in cloaks then cloak the cloakers and then cloak the becloaked cloakers further!!!!!!!
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