Fleets

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Re: Fleets

Postby Graham Kennedy » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:39 am

That seems long, but okay.
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Re: Fleets

Postby McAvoy » Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:55 am

GrahamKennedy wrote:I think it was more a case of preparation time.

Bear in mind that the Borg attack in BoBW happened over a very short span; the timing isn't clear, but from the initial discovery of the vanished colony to Wolf 359 was only a couple of days or so, tops. Similarly, in Unification Picard has to assemble a fleet basically using whatever he can get his hands on at the time, and gets about 20 ships together from one Starbase.

But the run up to the Dominion war lasted three years. They had a long, long warning that they might well need heavy concentrations of forces, and all the lead time in the world to assemble them.

To me that implies that Starfleet normally has their ships widely distributed; and indeed that's what we usually see in the show, with ships virtually always operating on their own. They occasionally rendezvous for one reason or another, but we never see so much as two ships working together as a matter of normal routine. With travel times of weeks or months, most ships just aren't available for the kinds of "instant crisis" we often see.



I do think Starfleet did have some sort of concentrted fleet(s) somewhere because having a widely distributed fleet would be a severe weakness if suprise attacked by one of the other powers. So there would be maybe not a fleet like we saw in DS9 where it was tightly packed but maybe where ships were within minutes of each other at warp.

So you would have Fleet A near Cardassian border, Fleet B at Romulan Neutral Zone and Fleet C somewhere else in a tightly contested area. Maybe these three fleets would add up lkess than a thousand total. It would stop a determined enemy to going full out war, but it would at least slow them down. At best act as a deterent.

But... we really do not see something like that until towards the end of season 5 of DS9. In Redemption we only saw 20 ships spared for the Romulan border. You would think there would alot more.
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Re: Fleets

Postby Jim » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:28 pm

GrahamKennedy wrote:To me that implies that Starfleet normally has their ships widely distributed; and indeed that's what we usually see in the show, with ships virtually always operating on their own. They occasionally rendezvous for one reason or another, but we never see so much as two ships working together as a matter of normal routine. With travel times of weeks or months, most ships just aren't available for the kinds of "instant crisis" we often see.


Moer of a merchant fleet in that concept than military. When you are not "looking" for a fight or looking to deter fights you do not need a wolf pack. Plus, with replicators and such there is no need for supply ships or cargo carriers ro accompany larger craft as support.
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Re: Fleets

Postby Graham Kennedy » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:49 am

McAvoy wrote:I do think Starfleet did have some sort of concentrted fleet(s) somewhere because having a widely distributed fleet would be a severe weakness if suprise attacked by one of the other powers. So there would be maybe not a fleet like we saw in DS9 where it was tightly packed but maybe where ships were within minutes of each other at warp.


I'd agree that that would make sense, but the fact is that they did suffer from exactly that weakness repeatedly in the show. If there were one place you'd expect to find dense force concentrations it would be along the Klingon or Romulan neutral zones, but look at episodes like Balance of Terror, Contagion, The Enemy and Unification - every one involved an incident on or within the neutral zone. It's not even a complete list. Yet in every case one starship was on hand to deal with it, and help was said to be nowhere near. Even as late as Nemesis the E-E's backup waiting at the border consisted of what, five or so ships? And they had a day or two to gather.

Everything we've seen indicates that massed forces of dozens or hundreds of ships simply did not exist until shortly before the Dominion war.
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Re: Fleets

Postby Jim » Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:14 am

A good way to START a war with a glitchy war-mongering race like the Romulans or Klingons would be to keep a threatening number of ships on their border.

... not a good idea.
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Re: Fleets

Postby McAvoy » Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:44 am

Jim wrote:A good way to START a war with a glitchy war-mongering race like the Romulans or Klingons would be to keep a threatening number of ships on their border.

... not a good idea.


As opposed to having ships not within reach of a first strike? THAT is not a good idea. As great as Romulan intelligence can/could/are/were be/was, having a maybe dozen ships on the border to protect the Neutral Zone, would be even worse.

Basically look at it as mutual defense.
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Re: Fleets

Postby alexmann » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:10 pm

McAvoy wrote:
Jim wrote:A good way to START a war with a glitchy war-mongering race like the Romulans or Klingons would be to keep a threatening number of ships on their border.

... not a good idea.


As opposed to having ships not within reach of a first strike? THAT is not a good idea. As great as Romulan intelligence can/could/are/were be/was, having a maybe dozen ships on the border to protect the Neutral Zone, would be even worse.

Basically look at it as mutual defense.


I agree with McAvoy.
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Re: Fleets

Postby Deepcrush » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:10 am

Remember that while the Klingons don't mind picking individual ship to ship fights. Large scale conflicts require the agreement of the High Council. So a large fleet is more then likely to justify a conflict then prevent one. With the Romulans, they're just idiots with war so really you're better off letting them attack first and then tell the Klingons "go have some fun".

Its also a bad idea to have your main fleets in reach of the enemy fleet. You want your fleets back a bit so that you can use skirmishers and scouts to locate and plan out your response.
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Re: Fleets

Postby McAvoy » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:15 pm

Good point.

I ddin't think the main fleet would be within striking distance of any suprise attack just close enough for the fleet to respond if need be.

Then again, this TNG not DS9.
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Re: Fleets

Postby Deepcrush » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:07 am

Remember that striking distances in Trek are going to rate a great deal differently. Ships don't really suffer range problems so much as speed problems.
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Re: Fleets

Postby Mark » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:00 am

McAvoy wrote:
Jim wrote:A good way to START a war with a glitchy war-mongering race like the Romulans or Klingons would be to keep a threatening number of ships on their border.

... not a good idea.


As opposed to having ships not within reach of a first strike? THAT is not a good idea. As great as Romulan intelligence can/could/are/were be/was, having a maybe dozen ships on the border to protect the Neutral Zone, would be even worse.

Basically look at it as mutual defense.



Your forgetting Starfleets mandate. Starfleet ISN'T going to launch a first strike to start a war. The border monitoring stations are pretty much toast if anyone comes across. However, keeping a defensive fleet close enough to respond to the incursion seems more Starfleets style.
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Re: Fleets

Postby McAvoy » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:48 pm

Mark wrote:
McAvoy wrote:
Jim wrote:A good way to START a war with a glitchy war-mongering race like the Romulans or Klingons would be to keep a threatening number of ships on their border.

... not a good idea.


As opposed to having ships not within reach of a first strike? THAT is not a good idea. As great as Romulan intelligence can/could/are/were be/was, having a maybe dozen ships on the border to protect the Neutral Zone, would be even worse.

Basically look at it as mutual defense.



Your forgetting Starfleets mandate. Starfleet ISN'T going to launch a first strike to start a war. The border monitoring stations are pretty much toast if anyone comes across. However, keeping a defensive fleet close enough to respond to the incursion seems more Starfleets style.



I never said anything about first strikes? :confused:
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Re: Fleets

Postby Mark » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:37 am

Did I quote the wrong message? Sorry :D I was half asleep last night.
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Re: Fleets

Postby McAvoy » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:18 pm

Mark wrote:Did I quote the wrong message? Sorry :D I was half asleep last night.


I see what you were looking at when I said "not having ships within reach of a first strike". You may have thought I meant Starfleet being within reach of commiting a first strike. i should have been clearer as in defending from first strikes.
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Re: Fleets

Postby Mark » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:58 am

Got ya :)
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