They sit and talk: the five Captains

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Re: They sit and talk: the five Captains

Postby shran » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:23 am

Archer may not be as despised as we might think. Remember, these are representatives of two different eras, with different starfleets, operating on different principles. He is the new guy around and therefore you can cut him some slack. Also, should they return to their timelines, repercussions could be that the timeline gets altered, even by small things as giving him advice. That may lead to the undoing of the Federation.
Small effects can have great causes. For example, when Picard changed one thing he did as an ensign, he felt those consequences big time. Imagine that on a far larger scale, as Archer is a starship captain and promptly changes his decision.

My view on such a meeting occurring would probably lead to an ethics debate, probably mostly centered on the Prime Directive. Kirk probably has a proactive stance, whereas Picard would advocate a more passive view, Janeway would probably get yelled at for bad judgement, even while in the predicament of getting home, considering the Prime Directive related incidents while taking a detour.
As for Sisko, I don't really know where he would stand.
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Re: They sit and talk: the five Captains

Postby SolkaTruesilver » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:25 pm

shran wrote:As for Sisko, I don't really know where he would stand.


Sisko's stance on morality has been probably one of the core strenght on Deep Space 9:

He didn't let the rule make the morality call in his stead. The rule was there as an punitive measure to be held against him if he violated it, but he still did what he felt was right, no matter what. Even if it meant doing wrong to do the right thing at the end.
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Re: They sit and talk: the five Captains

Postby Mikey » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:05 pm

In other words, Sisko often violated morality in the name of morality. That's about right, but I don't know if it equates to a centered moral compass. Even less so, when we amend that equation to better fit the "reality" of the situation: Sisko often violated absolute morality in the name of engendering an outcome more personally tasteful to him.
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Re: They sit and talk: the five Captains

Postby SolkaTruesilver » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:42 pm

Mikey wrote:In other words, Sisko often violated morality in the name of morality. That's about right, but I don't know if it equates to a centered moral compass. Even less so, when we amend that equation to better fit the "reality" of the situation: Sisko often violated absolute morality in the name of engendering an outcome more personally tasteful to him.


Which was still immensely superior to Janeway's morality track record, don't you think?

We should make a list of all of Sisko's immoral actions, compared to Kirk's, Picard's and Janeway's (I don't even try to bring Archer's), and how each one of these turned out.
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Re: They sit and talk: the five Captains

Postby Mikey » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:21 pm

Why? How does the moral track record of any of them affect that of any of the others?
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Re: They sit and talk: the five Captains

Postby SolkaTruesilver » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:19 pm

Hum... we were talking about "where Sisko would stand" on the matter of discussed morality/the Prime Directive, etc... as per Shran's post
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Re: They sit and talk: the five Captains

Postby Mikey » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:50 pm

SolkaTruesilver wrote:Hum... we were talking about "where Sisko would stand" on the matter of discussed morality/the Prime Directive, etc... as per Shran's post


Right, but the morality or immorality of one's actions don't change the morality of another's.
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Re: They sit and talk: the five Captains

Postby SolkaTruesilver » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:05 pm

Mikey wrote:
SolkaTruesilver wrote:Hum... we were talking about "where Sisko would stand" on the matter of discussed morality/the Prime Directive, etc... as per Shran's post


Right, but the morality or immorality of one's actions don't change the morality of another's.


It's always nice to have a benchmark to consider wether or not one person's action have been generaly moral or not, and the calls a Starfleet Captain has to make is unique ennough that I don't think we can afford to judge them outside of peer review.
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Re: They sit and talk: the five Captains

Postby Mark » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:41 pm

Wait, we have all five Captains, sitting around at the end of their careers, chatting?

I ask because Season 1 Archer is quite different than the Archer portrayed in the final episode
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Re: They sit and talk: the five Captains

Postby Mikey » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:54 pm

SolkaTruesilver wrote:
Mikey wrote:
SolkaTruesilver wrote:Hum... we were talking about "where Sisko would stand" on the matter of discussed morality/the Prime Directive, etc... as per Shran's post


Right, but the morality or immorality of one's actions don't change the morality of another's.


It's always nice to have a benchmark to consider wether or not one person's action have been generaly moral or not, and the calls a Starfleet Captain has to make is unique ennough that I don't think we can afford to judge them outside of peer review.


On the contrary, something concrete must be held as absolute with which to judge morality. One of our captains judging the morality of another is all but useless.

That's completely aside from the point, though. I'll explain it like this: Janeway did action x, which we consider immoral. The fact of Sisko (or anyone else) performing action y - also immoral - doesn't mitigate the immorality of x.
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Re: They sit and talk: the five Captains

Postby Mark » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:55 pm

Don't worry. Picard will quite judgementally point out everyone elses percieved moral shortcommings anyway
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Re: They sit and talk: the five Captains

Postby Reliant121 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:57 pm

And then either Kirk or Sisko will adamently argue that morality is a guide to be used to temper actions, not to be a hard and fast, black and white absolute.
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Re: They sit and talk: the five Captains

Postby Mark » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:59 pm

I doubt that Sisko would take that position. He's quite aware of the black and white of morality, he's just willing to do the wrong thing to get the right result.
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Re: They sit and talk: the five Captains

Postby Reliant121 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:02 pm

Perhaps black and white was the wrong way of putting it. I think both he and kirk will take morality as an ideal to apply a dashing of pragmatism too.
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Re: They sit and talk: the five Captains

Postby Mikey » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:24 pm

Mark wrote:Don't worry. Picard will quite judgementally point out everyone elses percieved moral shortcommings anyway


:laughroll:
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