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Mikey wrote:

Tsukiyumi wrote:

Mikey wrote:...michigas

Okay, you got me with that one. Hebrew for "bullsh*t"?

Close enough. Yiddish for "annoying craziness."

So, it doubles for "woman". Gotcha.

Tsukiyumi wrote:So, it doubles for "woman". Gotcha.

Captain Seafort wrote:Why do you think the Rise asteroid was 400 m long?

1) It is 350 meters long
2) I measured it

Why do you think fragmenting said asteroid requires vaporisation?

Beacouse it was specifically stated in episode.

Tuvok: "The asteroid is fragmenting. But, most of the debris is still on a collision course with the planet."
Janeway: "Target the fragments. Destroy them."
Chakotay: "That asteroid should have been vaporized. What happened?"
Kim: "I'm not sure. Sensors showed a simple nickel-iron composition. We shouldn't be seeing fragments more than a centimeter in diameter."

No, they weren't, they were talking about fragmenting it, as demonstrated by the fact that Kim described how big he expected said fragments to be.

Above. And your logic is wrong. Simply talking about fragments does not necessarily imply fragmentation. There were to be fragments, yes. They stated these fragments should be <=1 centimeter in diameter, yes. But they expected vaporization.

Your own quote proves you wrong. On one hand, Chakotay expected vaporization; OTOH, Kim expected fragmentation. The former, a guerilla adopted into service due to his leadership ability and relationship with half the crew; the latter, a technically-trained Starfleet operations officer.

Do you know what happens when you heat something too much too fast? It blows up. There is no contradiction, except that you want contradiction.

EDIT: You are also wrong, Chakotay graduated from Starfleet Academy.

Actually that's a gross simplification. A small portion of the material will sublimate directly to gas and then depending on the properties of the material the gas will escape somehow. It could require only a very small portion of the material to sublimate to generate sufficient pressure to shatter an asteroid into fragments. You don't have to assume 80% of the material was vaporized to reduce the remaining 20% to small fragments. If anything I'd say that's off by an order of magnitude or more.

Also, vaporization is never been used as a strictly technical term especially under stressful conditions.

Picard wrote:Do you know what happens when you heat something too much too fast? It blows up. There is no contradiction, except that you want contradiction.

Or it melts. Or it sublimates. Or it gets hot. There is no contradiction because you can't even organize your point.

Picard wrote:EDIT: You are also wrong, Chakotay graduated from Starfleet Academy.

How can I be wrong, when I never mentioned his education or enrollment? Trying to toss out a red herring will not hide the fact that the quote you provided disproves your assumption about VOY's intent.

Picard wrote:1) It is 350 meters long
2) I measured it

I obviously wasn't clear enough.

Show your fucking evidence you retarded little shitstain.

Mikey wrote:

Picard wrote:Do you know what happens when you heat something too much too fast? It blows up. There is no contradiction, except that you want contradiction.

Or it melts. Or it sublimates. Or it gets hot.

Or it simply shatters.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Picard wrote:1) It is 350 meters long
2) I measured it

I obviously wasn't clear enough.

Show your f***ing evidence you retarded little shitstain.

I can't beacouse I did not upload it anywhere. And I'm planning to do it again, this time with better-quality screenshots I captured myself. Screenshots I used originally are from here.

Mikey wrote:

Picard wrote:Do you know what happens when you heat something too much too fast? It blows up. There is no contradiction, except that you want contradiction.

Or it melts. Or it sublimates. Or it gets hot.

Or it simply shatters.[/quote]

Except that they expected vaporization, as I already proved with quote, you so happily ignore.

Picard wrote:I can't beacouse I did not upload it anywhere. And I'm planning to do it again, this time with better-quality screenshots I captured myself. Screenshots I used originally are from here.

So get on with it or concede the point.

Except that they expected vaporization, as I already proved with quote, you so happily ignore.

Your quote proves that they were expecting fragmentation. Chakotay (the tactical expert) commented that it should have been vaporised. Kim (the technical expert) then corrected him by stating that fragments were expected.

Kim never stated fragments were to be results of fragmentation; also incomplete vaporization, when result of explosion, will create fragments.

So get on with it or concede the point.

I just did measurements for asteroid with screenshots I took using Premiere (downloaded episode recently). Asteroid is 373 meters in length.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... frame1.bmp
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... rement.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... ements.bmp

Picard wrote:Kim never stated fragments were to be results of fragmentation; also incomplete vaporization, when result of explosion, will create fragments.

And yet you still use vaporisation energy to calculate the yield, despite the clear expectation of fragmentation, making your estimates at best an extreme upper limit.

I just did measurements for asteroid with screenshots I took using Premiere (downloaded episode recently). Asteroid is 373 meters in length.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... frame1.bmp
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... rement.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... ements.bmp

Oh joy. A "torpedo glow growth" idiot. I thought so. The PT is moving towards the camera, and is far closer to the camera than it is to Voyager. It will therefore appear to be far larger than it actually is. If you use the actual size of the torp (2 metres) you will find that the rock is actually about 76 metres by 50 metres which, modelling it as a cylinder, gives a volume of 150000 m^3, equivalent to a sphere of diameter 66 metres. Such an asteroid would have a vaporisation energy of 2.2 Mt, a melting energy of 360 kt, and a cratering energy (that required to blast a crater equal to the rock's radius) of 1.4 kt.

The vaporisation energy is obviously too high, both because the asteroid is obviously considerably smaller than a cylinder of its maximum dimensions and because they expected fragmentation, but it can be used as an extreme upper limit, with a more likely yield probably below 1 Mt.

Picard wrote:Except that they expected vaporization, as I already proved with quote, you so happily ignore.

I'm not ignoring anything - you're ignoring the fact that you inadvertently proved that out of two people, one expected vaporization and one expected fragmentation.

Picard wrote:Kim never stated fragments were to be results of fragmentation; also incomplete vaporization, when result of explosion, will create fragments.

The only way to get fragments is by fragmentation - that's the definition of fragmentation. Kim stated an expectation about resultant fragments - that means fragmentation would have occurred. Or, perhaps you expect fragments to spring into being amid a spray of rainbows and fairy unicorns?

They problem is, you both are acting like only one could occur. One character expected at least some fragmentation, and another expected at least some vaporization. It doesn't take a mental leap to figure that maybe a little bit of both was expected. In fact, with a high amount of vaporization (caused by the heat/antimatter reaction of the torpedo) there would likely be fragments of small size (perfect with both character statements).

Indeed. I am not, however, attempting to calculate a weapon yield based on the incorrect assumption of complete vaporization. Since you are correct in thinking that most probably there would be a combination of fragmentation and vaporization... and we don't know the proportion of each case... then in reality attempting to accurately determine the yield from this instance is moot.