Does main site need rewriting?

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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Picard » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:20 am

Torpedo yields are all over the place; you'd probably get a different number from every single example of one exploding in the whole of Trek.


I know. Yields go from few kilograms of TNT to few hundred megatons / few gigatons of TNT, but we have relatively few instances where they specifically stated torpedoes are on full yield, or it can be concluded torpedoes are full-yield. And some of these instances can be explained in several possible ways (like "Pegasus" - can be interpreted to give few kilotons to 500 megatons as high end for torpedoes). But Manuals are not canon anymore, and trying to fit Manuals in overall picture only unnecesarily complicates things.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Mikey » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:50 am

Picard wrote:Yet Federation uses Tritanium in starship construction.


They use carpet, too, but that has about the same relevance to Yar's statement.

Picard wrote:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... stered.jpg


Pretty picture, but it doesn't really speak to any particular point.

Picard wrote:Plus:
"This is the commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise. All cities and installations on Eminiar 7 have been located, identified, and fed into our fire control system. In 1 hour and 45 minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your hostages."


Again, this doesn't say anything useful. I don't see any references in that quote to how many weapons would be used, what type of weapons, or the capabilities of those weapons.

Picard wrote:Evidence of yield requred so that anything can reach dome? They said that collateral damage of blasting throught planetary shield will destroy dome.


Exactly - the ability to breach the dome is useless for determining weapon yields.

Picard wrote:But Manuals are not canon anymore, and trying to fit Manuals in overall picture only unnecesarily complicates things.


"Anymore?" I don't think they were ever canon. In any event, that's why the TM's shouldn't even be considered when dissecting canon.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:09 pm

Picard wrote:Asteroid is 390 meters long at absolute minimum.


No, it's more like 100m long, if you're being generous. If you wish to claim otherwise, provide evidence.

They did expected fragments, but these were 1-centimeter fragments, so my guess is that around 80% of asteroid was to be vaporized. Correct me if I'm wrong in that guess.


Source for your "estimate"?

"This is the commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise. All cities and installations on Eminiar 7 have been located, identified, and fed into our fire control system. In 1 hour and 45 minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your hostages."


In other words, major cities and industrial centres, as I said.

Evidence of yield requred so that anything can reach dome?


15 mg of gunpowder. Source: thin air. It's no worse than anything you've provided.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Tyyr » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:34 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
They did expected fragments, but these were 1-centimeter fragments, so my guess is that around 80% of asteroid was to be vaporized. Correct me if I'm wrong in that guess.


Source for your "estimate"?

I'm with Seafort on this. Without knowing the composition of the asteroid you've got know way to know what would be required to reduce it to small fragments and how that would affect the asteroid. An iron asteroid is just that, a nearly solid lump of iron. An agglomerated asteroid is a loosely bound rubble pile. Obviously the effort required to reduce either of these asteroids to tiny fragments is wildly different.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:38 pm

They thought the asteroid in question was nickel-iron. The objection I've got is that he's pulled 80% vaporised out of his arse, with no reference whatsoever. It doesn't really matter, as I'm willing to use total vaporisation to get an extreme upper limit and it still produces a number far lower than anything he's produced because he's wildly overestimated how big the rock is.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Mikey » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:55 pm

The issue I have is that he used the idea that resultant fragments would he so small that some vaporization is necessary. Totally untrue - no matter how small they are, if you have enough of them then no vaporization needs to be assumed.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Picard » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:41 pm

It came out as 98 megatons in end when I did new calcs by using photoshop.

And photon torpedo is NOT hammer - to get 1 centimeter fragments, vast majority of asteroid (I took it as 80%) has to be vaporized.

In other words, major cities and industrial centres, as I said.


Where you saw word "major"?

15 mg of gunpowder. Source: thin air. It's no worse than anything you've provided.


Not throught planetary shield.

Pretty picture, but it doesn't really speak to any particular point.


Except it is Eminiar VII.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:47 pm

Picard wrote:It came out as 98 megatons in end when I did new calcs by using photoshop.


Provide those calculations. MS Paint's good enough to calc it, and it's still a fucking sight smaller than you think it is.

And photon torpedo is NOT hammer - to get 1 centimeter fragments, vast majority of asteroid (I took it as 80%) has to be vaporized.


Provide references.

Where you saw word "major"?


Nitpicking. The point that Gt range weapons are in no way supported by the described effects stands.

Not throught planetary shield.


Then fucking prove it.

Except it is Eminiar VII.


Good for it. Doesn't change its relevance (or lack thereof).
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:55 pm

Thread moved. It's had very little to do with the site since the first post.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Mikey » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:53 pm

Picard wrote:And photon torpedo is NOT hammer - to get 1 centimeter fragments, vast majority of asteroid (I took it as 80%) has to be vaporized.


If you have fragments totalling x mass and the asteroid intially had x mass, then the amount of the asteroid which was vaporized is... wait for it... ZERO.

Picard wrote:Not throught planetary shield.


Where did you get the specifications of the Eminiar shield?

Picard wrote:Except it is Eminiar VII.


Indeed it is. It is also a picture which provides absolutely zero information about the topic at hand.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Mark » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:00 am

Good call Seafort
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Picard » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:53 am

Where did you get the specifications of the Eminiar shield?


It was Elba II, not Eminiar.


If you have fragments totalling x mass and the asteroid intially had x mass, then the amount of the asteroid which was vaporized is... wait for it... ZERO.



You simply can't get it right, can't you?

They expected to be able to mostly vaporize what they thought to be nickel-iron asteroid, but it was not, so it wasn't vaporized.


Indeed it is. It is also a picture which provides absolutely zero information about the topic at hand.


Except you can determine yield of torpedoes from that - torpedoes would account for at least 50% of destruction.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Mikey » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:32 pm

Picard wrote:It was Elba II, not Eminiar.


Regardless, the shield about which you speak might have, for all we know, been constructed of either the greatest force field the UFP has ever encountered... OR onion-skin paper. If you are going to use this shield to determine torpedo yields, then please provide your figures for the shield strength and the source for those figures.

Picard wrote:You simply can't get it right, can't you?

They expected to be able to mostly vaporize what they thought to be nickel-iron asteroid, but it was not, so it wasn't vaporized.


Sure I can. You're the one who keeps claiming that the small size of the resultant fragments necessitates vaporization. This is a false claim. What they expected to do, and subsequently failed to do, has absolutely no bearing.

Picard wrote:Except you can determine yield of torpedoes from that


No you can't. You can determine what torpedo detonations look like from orbit - that's all.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Tyyr » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:33 pm

Picard wrote:Except you can determine yield of torpedoes from that - torpedoes would account for at least 50% of destruction.

...what? From what, making 50% of the lights go out? You can't determine anything from that in relation to torpedo yield.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby stitch626 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:53 pm

Lets put it this way Picard.

They expected the asteroid to be nickel/iron. That would require vaporization to bring the roid to suitable size (since a solid metal asteroid is not likely to fragment from an external explosive force). They were worried that they would not be able to do so, but tried anyway.
The result they got was similar to if the asteroid had a large amount of clay mixed in with the metal. Clay shatters, leaving millions of tiny fragments, without the use of much force (relatively).
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