Does main site need rewriting?

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Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Picard » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:36 pm

As you probably all know, Technical Manuals are not canon for long time. While I did notice that info from Manuals is put under "backstage" sources, it is overridden by on-screen evidence. For example, ST TNG TM gives 64 megatons for photon torpedo yields. However, "Pegasus" gives us 542 megaton torpedoes, and "Skin of Evil" gives 507 megatons. I have never seen any indication that Federation uses two different types of torpedoes for ground attack and space combat in any episodes; also, explosions seen in space are not reliable, and are probably portrayed badly - if you watch any DS9 episodes, or new movies, it seems like torpedoes are portrayed like chemical weapons, so any arguments that "explosions seen are too small" does not stand.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Captain Seafort » Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:02 pm

Picard wrote:However, "Pegasus" gives us 542 megaton torpedoes


It does not. It gives about 1 Mt.

"Skin of Evil" gives 507 megatons. I have never seen any indication that Federation uses two different types of torpedoes for ground attack and space combat in any episodes


Other than the clear differences we observe between the yields of various torpedoes and, more emphatically, the explicit statement in "Scorpion" that Voyager carries both standard Mk VI and "high yield" torps.

explosions seen in space are not reliable, and are probably portrayed badly - if you watch any DS9 episodes, or new movies, it seems like torpedoes are portrayed like chemical weapons, so any arguments that "explosions seen are too small" does not stand.


Tough. Under SoD, WYSIWYG.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Picard » Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:24 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Picard wrote:However, "Pegasus" gives us 542 megaton torpedoes


It does not. It gives about 1 Mt.


That asteroid is 8974 meters long, and 4487 meters wide on average per my measurements. In order to destroy Pegasus, they had to vaporize it. I used Wong's calculator for this one, but total energy would be 130 gigatons minimum. Divide that by 240 ("most torpedoes") and you get 542 megatons.

Captain Seafort wrote:
"Skin of Evil" gives 507 megatons. I have never seen any indication that Federation uses two different types of torpedoes for ground attack and space combat in any episodes


Other than the clear differences we observe between the yields of various torpedoes and, more emphatically, the explicit statement in "Scorpion" that Voyager carries both standard Mk VI and "high yield" torps.


I don't remember it but it was a while since I watched that episode. I have been in process of watching TNG. And as for "clear differences" we could easily end up with 5 different torpedo types at least.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Captain Seafort » Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:33 pm

Picard wrote:That asteroid is 8974 meters long, and 4487 meters wide on average per my measurements.


Measurements to that degree of precision are not possible with the resolution available.

In order to destroy Pegasus, they had to vaporize it.


Evidence of that? Merely fragmenting the asteroid would be quite sufficient - any lumps of ship that survived could be dealt with by their remaining torpedoes and phaser fire.

I don't remember it but it was a while since I watched that episode. I have been in process of watching TNG. And as for "clear differences" we could easily end up with 5 different torpedo types at least.


And? US submarines, for example, were equipped to carry six different weapons.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Picard » Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:34 pm


Measurements to that degree of precision are not possible with the resolution available.



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... age004.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... age006.jpg

Try doing your own measurements. Hole throught which E-D is entering asteroid is located 75 millimeters from left side of screenshot and 52 millimeters from top side of screenshot.

Evidence of that? Merely fragmenting the asteroid would be quite sufficient - any lumps of ship that survived could be dealt with by their remaining torpedoes and phaser fire.


They did not mention phasers at all, and starship hull can survive kiloton-range weapons. Hand phasers are unable to melt centimeter thick plate of tritanium, which is material used in construction of GCS hull. Main issue was that they had to destroy Pegasus before Romulans detect them. Or at least before they can stop them.

And? US submarines, for example, were equipped to carry six different weapons.


I have military magazine with article about Los Angeles class subs (it might be out of date since it was published in 2002 but it is not important for this). Back then, submarines of that class carried heavy anti-ship/submarine torpedoes (Mk 48 or Mk 48 ADCAP), anti-ship missiles (Harpoon), anti-ship/anti-land missiles (Tomahawk TASM and Tomahawk TLAM) and two mine types. I think Tomahawk can be equipped with nuclear warhead too. Main reason for that are different targets these weapons attack - different size, speed, range, targeting systems, warheads. You won't be using nuclear missiles to sink individual ships, due to collateral damage and cost of weapon. But then you have Star Trek torpedoes, where you can change yield by simply changing amount of matter/antimatter which loaded right before launch, in desired quantity. Point is, while nuclear sub must carry 6 different types of weapons, starship does not.

Plus, try doing calculations for episode "Rise". Voyager crew fully expected to be able to vaporize asteroid heading towards planet by single torpedo. At absolute low end, it was about same size as "Voyager". Also, it was moving target, which means it should be targeted by anti-ship torpedo. By using that absolute low end, we get 200 megaton torpedo. At absolute high end, it is 22 gigatons.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Captain Seafort » Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:49 pm

Picard wrote:Try doing your own measurements.


Did so years ago - the asteroid is actually considerably bigger than you think.

They did not mention phasers at all


Riker was making the specific suggestion to destroy the asteroid - there would be no need for him to specifically mention anything as screamingly obvious as mopping up debris.

starship hull can survive kiloton-range weapons.


And phasers can punch holes in starships. Not surprising, given that they're treated as being tactically equivalent to PTs and must therefore have roughly similar effective yields.

Hand phasers are unable to melt centimeter thick plate of tritanium, which is material used in construction of GCS hull.


Source? In any event, rifles and handguns are unable to penetrate battleship armour. This is not true of 15" naval guns.

Main issue was that they had to destroy Pegasus before Romulans detect them. Or at least before they can stop them.


So use PTs to smash the asteroid into small fragments and use the phasers and any PTs left over to obliterate any remaining bits of starship

But then you have Star Trek torpedoes, where you can change yield by simply changing amount of matter/antimatter which loaded right before launch


Which would produce wildly different effects.

Voyager crew fully expected to be able to vaporize asteroid heading towards planet by single torpedo.


No, they didn't, they expected micrometeorites.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Picard » Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:50 am


So use PTs to smash the asteroid into small fragments and use the phasers and any PTs left over to obliterate any remaining bits of starship



That would suggest kiloton-range photon torpedoes as upper limit, which goes against rest of canon. Plus they did not have time to mop up debris.



Source? In any event, rifles and handguns are unable to penetrate battleship armour. This is not true of 15" naval guns.



TNG "Arsenal of Freedom". Point is - we can calculate energy output of hand phasers from other episodes ("Silicon Avatar" etc), which is around 100 MW. From that, we can calculate energy required to melt tritanium (we know it can withstand several thousand degrees celsius).


And phasers can punch holes in starships. Not surprising, given that they're treated as being tactically equivalent to PTs and must therefore have roughly similar effective yields.



Which means there is no way E-D's weapons can be kiloton-range, as your interpretation of "Pegasus" suggests. And "Pegasus" is one of rare useful episodes, beacouse:
a) it is from TNG, and therefore more consistent than most other "useful" examples
b) it is one of rare examples when we have explicitly stated what torpedoes can and what cannot achieve
Also, to achieve similar yield to PT, phasers have to be fired at way lower rate than torpedoes can achieve.


Which would produce wildly different effects.



Which is exactly what we see during entire run of nST series (TNG, DS9, VOY).
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Captain Seafort » Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:59 pm

Picard wrote:That would suggest kiloton-range photon torpedoes as upper limit, which goes against rest of canon.


On the contrary, the few calculable incidents we have are consistent with kiloton/low megaton range weapons.

Plus they did not have time to mop up debris.


Why? There was no time-critical factor - if the Romulans turned up all they would see would be bits of Fed ship being blasted. They'd certainly have their suspicions, but they were already suspicious, and would be left with no Pegasus and no proof.

TNG "Arsenal of Freedom".


A whole 45 minutes episode. Please explain the incident to which you are referring.

Point is - we can calculate energy output of hand phasers from other episodes ("Silicon Avatar" etc), which is around 100 MW.


Sorry, but producing phaser energy figures from their effect on inert matter (which I assume is what you're tried to do) simply isn't possible due to their chain-reaction method of operation.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby IanKennedy » Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:19 pm

Picard wrote:As you probably all know, Technical Manuals are not canon for long time. While I did notice that info from Manuals is put under "backstage" sources, it is overridden by on-screen evidence. For example, ST TNG TM gives 64 megatons for photon torpedo yields. However, "Pegasus" gives us 542 megaton torpedoes, and "Skin of Evil" gives 507 megatons. I have never seen any indication that Federation uses two different types of torpedoes for ground attack and space combat in any episodes; also, explosions seen in space are not reliable, and are probably portrayed badly - if you watch any DS9 episodes, or new movies, it seems like torpedoes are portrayed like chemical weapons, so any arguments that "explosions seen are too small" does not stand.

We take a completely different view. What you see and here on screen is accurate, if it disagrees with anything you calculate then your calculations are wrong, either because you don't have the facts or because the science of the trek universe is different from our own, as is obvious from the fact that they can travel faster than light.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Picard » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:55 am

And do you know how would M/AM explosion in space look?

http://www.wwheaton.com/waw/mad/mad12.html

First, it is M/AM explosion, as opposed to classical nuclear explosion. Main product of that explosion are various types of radiation, mostly invisible but very damaging. Second, reactants in photon torpedo get annihilated relatively fast. So my guess is that, regardless of yield, we will see just very small, very bright flash which will disappear quickly, as soon as reaction finishes. But photon torpedoes are portrayed like strong chemical weapons by visual effects team (especially in newer instances, "First Contact" comes to mind). So, if we take stance that visual effects override everything, it would mean that torpedoes are not M/AM weapons, but rather just large, glowy artillery shells.


Sorry, but producing phaser energy figures from their effect on inert matter (which I assume is what you're tried to do) simply isn't possible due to their chain-reaction method of operation.


Except that I do not see what NDF has to do with heating stones.

Please explain the incident to which you are referring.


When Tasha states that hand phaser cannot melt centimeter-thick plate of tritanium.

Why? There was no time-critical factor - if the Romulans turned up all they would see would be bits of Fed ship being blasted. They'd certainly have their suspicions, but they were already suspicious, and would be left with no Pegasus and no proof.


I got impression that Romulans already knew something - althought I'm not quite sure they knew about cloak.


On the contrary, the few calculable incidents we have are consistent with kiloton/low megaton range weapons.



"Skin of Evil" - 500 megatons
"Rise" - 180 megatons low end - there is no way you can get centimeter-wide fragments without vaporizing vast majority of asteroid. And this is for underscaled asteroid.
"A Taste of Armageddon" - several gigatons per torpedo
"Whom gods Destroy" - unknown, but certainly above kilotons, as even collateral damage of blasting throught planetary shield will destroy dome
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Mikey » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:31 pm

I have no desire to get into the math of the subject, but I do have some questions about the logic of the above.

Picard wrote: But photon torpedoes are portrayed like strong chemical weapons by visual effects team (especially in newer instances, "First Contact" comes to mind). So, if we take stance that visual effects override everything, it would mean that torpedoes are not M/AM weapons, but rather just large, glowy artillery shells.


How exactly can you tell that the VFX you describe portray the warhead independently, rather than the effects of the warhead on the material that ha been struck?

Picard wrote:there is no way you can get centimeter-wide fragments without vaporizing vast majority of asteroid. And this is for underscaled asteroid.


Of course you can, if you have enough fragments.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Tyyr » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:36 pm

If its an agglomerated asteroid there's not going to be much holding it together.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Graham Kennedy » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:07 pm

Picard wrote:As you probably all know, Technical Manuals are not canon for long time. While I did notice that info from Manuals is put under "backstage" sources, it is overridden by on-screen evidence. For example, ST TNG TM gives 64 megatons for photon torpedo yields. However, "Pegasus" gives us 542 megaton torpedoes, and "Skin of Evil" gives 507 megatons. I have never seen any indication that Federation uses two different types of torpedoes for ground attack and space combat in any episodes; also, explosions seen in space are not reliable, and are probably portrayed badly - if you watch any DS9 episodes, or new movies, it seems like torpedoes are portrayed like chemical weapons, so any arguments that "explosions seen are too small" does not stand.


Torpedo yields are all over the place; you'd probably get a different number from every single example of one exploding in the whole of Trek. Partly this can be explained away because they have variable yields, or that they may employ different models of torps, etc. Of course in reality torps are simply as powerful as the plot needs them to be.

As for the site, I ignore the TMs where canon interferes with them and go with a combination of whatever the canon says combined with a dose of common sense. You can read my take on them in the article about them.
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Captain Seafort » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:40 pm

Picard wrote:Except that I do not see what NDF has to do with heating stones.


Evidently an effect of a limited NDF chain reaction.

When Tasha states that hand phaser cannot melt centimeter-thick plate of tritanium.


She says nothing of the sort - she states that the Tritanium has been melted, and that such a feat is beyond Federation technology. She says nothing about the type of weapon, or the quantity of tritanium involved.

"Skin of Evil" - 500 megatons.


Against a fixed target on a planetary surface and, more importantly, an interstellar shuttle. It would have had antimatter on board, which would have contributed to the explosion.

"Rise" - 180 megatons low end - there is no way you can get centimeter-wide fragments without vaporizing vast majority of asteroid.


Bollocks. Even if we assume vaporisation, that's only a couple of Mt.

And this is for underscaled asteroid.


Evidence?

"A Taste of Armageddon" - several gigatons per torpedo


Again, bollocks. They wanted to destroy major cities and industrial centres - this is entirely possible with sufficient modern weapons, and therefore kt/Mt range.

"Whom gods Destroy" - unknown, but certainly above kilotons, as even collateral damage of blasting throught planetary shield will destroy dome


Evidence of the yield required to breach the dome?
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Re: Does main site need rewriting?

Postby Picard » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:37 am

She says nothing of the sort - she states that the Tritanium has been melted, and that such a feat is beyond Federation technology. She says nothing about the type of weapon, or the quantity of tritanium involved.


Yet Federation uses Tritanium in starship construction.

Bollocks. Even if we assume vaporisation, that's only a couple of Mt.


Asteroid is 390 meters long at absolute minimum. Volume is about 13.5 million cubic meters (absolute minimum, again).
In order to vaporize iron (or any material) you need to:
-raise temperature to point of melting
-add enough energy to actually melt material that has reached that point (heat of fusion)
-raise temperature to point of vaporizing
-add energy to vaporize it
Do calculations yourself. There is no way they could vaporize that asteroid with couple of Mt.
They did expected fragments, but these were 1-centimeter fragments, so my guess is that around 80% of asteroid was to be vaporized. Correct me if I'm wrong in that guess.


Again, bollocks. They wanted to destroy major cities and industrial centres - this is entirely possible with sufficient modern weapons, and therefore kt/Mt range.



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... stered.jpg

Plus:
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Evidence of the yield required to breach the dome?


Evidence of yield requred so that anything can reach dome? They said that collateral damage of blasting throught planetary shield will destroy dome.
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