Indeed. We also have to remember that Borg ships are quite non-standard in their arrangement, and it's probably possible that each cube is configured slightly differently (over time as it encounters different things it may reshape itself closer to maximum efficiency or "perfection"). Starfleet probably doesn't have much accurate data on what the inside of a cube looks like -- Voyager is still on the other side of the galaxy (was contact w/ Voyager made before or after FC?) and Picards data is 6 years out of date -- so while it may not have appeared to be a vital area to Data or the other Fed officer, it's still possible that it was. Between the Borg voices and Picards "trust me data" always implied to me that he knew something we didn't -- tho that could have been Picard keeping up appearances for the crewTyyr wrote:In general the idea of shooting at one specific point on a Borg ship to make it blow up is nonsense.
How to fight the Borg
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Re: How to fight the Borg
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Re: How to fight the Borg
I'm going by the first good description we've got of them in which Data lays it out that they're highly distributed and there are no concentrated engines, sensors, or weapons.
Re: How to fight the Borg
Shelby stated in Best of Both Worlds that Starfleet estimated a Borg ship could continue to function even in 78 (or 70 to 80 - can't quite make it out) percent of it was inoperable.
With Borg nanites as dangerous as they are, you'd probably have to incinerate what was left of a destroyed ship anyways.
Would an energy dampening weapon as employed by the Breen be effective? If you could manage to neutralise the entire ship in one blast, would that not prevent the Borg from being able to adapt to it?
With Borg nanites as dangerous as they are, you'd probably have to incinerate what was left of a destroyed ship anyways.
Would an energy dampening weapon as employed by the Breen be effective? If you could manage to neutralise the entire ship in one blast, would that not prevent the Borg from being able to adapt to it?
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Re: How to fight the Borg
She was wrong - the cube in FC didn't suffer anything close to that much damage before it blew.kostmayer wrote:Shelby stated in Best of Both Worlds that Starfleet estimated a Borg ship could continue to function even in 78 (or 70 to 80 - can't quite make it out) percent of it was inoperable.
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Re: How to fight the Borg
Which is why I think it was something specific to the area the ships fired on that destroyed the ship, rather then just concentrating the ships fire on a random spot.Captain Seafort wrote:She was wrong - the cube in FC didn't suffer anything close to that much damage before it blew.kostmayer wrote:Shelby stated in Best of Both Worlds that Starfleet estimated a Borg ship could continue to function even in 78 (or 70 to 80 - can't quite make it out) percent of it was inoperable.
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Re: How to fight the Borg
Or it is proof that Picard hit a nerve to begin with.Captain Seafort wrote:She was wrong - the cube in FC didn't suffer anything close to that much damage before it blew.kostmayer wrote:Shelby stated in Best of Both Worlds that Starfleet estimated a Borg ship could continue to function even in 78 (or 70 to 80 - can't quite make it out) percent of it was inoperable.
edit: ninja'd!
Re: How to fight the Borg
No proof really, tis all speculation.
What would have happened had Picard been leading the fight from the beginning.
What would have happened had Picard been leading the fight from the beginning.
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Re: How to fight the Borg
Why? As I've pointed out already, there's no evidence that Picard was getting detailed tactical information off the Borg, and no evidence that that area of the ship was in any way interesting - it was simply a convenient point to focus on.kostmayer wrote:Which is why I think it was something specific to the area the ships fired on that destroyed the ship, rather then just concentrating the ships fire on a random spot.
Shelby was making an assessment based on very limited data - it's no different from her guessing that the cube could have withstood the entire Fed fleet for 45 minutes - without additional data it would still just have been an educated guess.
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Re: How to fight the Borg
#1 - OK, I'm going to clarify: I don't care if it is chemical-explosion propulsion, rocket motors, or rail gun; the whole point of me saying mass-driver was to postulate a weapon that deals damage by impact as an adjunct to the already-extant directed-energy weapons and torps. I.e., I am expanding on GK's idea - instead of just having as many different types of typical contemporary weapons available with which to attack a Borg ship, why not have as many different types of damage causation? Directed-energy, M/AM warheads, massive slugs... hell, throw in a couple nukes. If it furthers the cause of keeping the Borg on their heels as far as their ability to adapt to attacks, strap Atomic Annie to the bridge deck.
#2 - I don't think the Borg in FC blew up specifically because of the location at which Picard ordered the concentration of fire - as Tyyr said, that would be nonsensical because the damage seemed to not be too deep into the structure of the ship. Rather, I believe it was simply a way to exploit an already-damaged area... which makes eminent sense.
#2 - I don't think the Borg in FC blew up specifically because of the location at which Picard ordered the concentration of fire - as Tyyr said, that would be nonsensical because the damage seemed to not be too deep into the structure of the ship. Rather, I believe it was simply a way to exploit an already-damaged area... which makes eminent sense.
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Re: How to fight the Borg
Define what you qualify "evidence". He clearly was hearing something. And stated that he knew what he was doing. While there isn't evidence to actually state he heard about a weakness in the ship's structure, gathered evidence so far strongly point in that direction.Captain Seafort wrote:Why? As I've pointed out already, there's no evidence that Picard was getting detailed tactical information off the Borg, and no evidence that that area of the ship was in any way interesting - it was simply a convenient point to focus on.
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Re: How to fight the Borg
No, the evidence is that he heard something in his head, AND he directed the fleet to fire at a particular spot. There is no evidence for a causal relationship between those facts. Further, it makes simple sense that an experienced commander would direct the fleet to concentrate fire on an already-damaged location, especially when firing on other locations on the cube was doing sweet F.A. That's simple tactical sense a/o experience... no supernatural message from the Borg "How to Beat Us" database required.
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Re: How to fight the Borg
Beat me to it. Note also that later on, when he was still "hearing" the collective, he needed to disable a Borg and have a look at its hard drive to realise that they intended to modify the deflector dish into a long-range beacon.
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Re: How to fight the Borg
Then why had no one else done it during the Battle? I need to rewatch the scene, but I can't believe that no other part of the Borg ship had recieved the same amount of concentrated damage as those last few ships inflicted on the area Picard chose.Mikey wrote:No, the evidence is that he heard something in his head, AND he directed the fleet to fire at a particular spot. There is no evidence for a causal relationship between those facts. Further, it makes simple sense that an experienced commander would direct the fleet to concentrate fire on an already-damaged location, especially when firing on other locations on the cube was doing sweet F.A. That's simple tactical sense a/o experience... no supernatural message from the Borg "How to Beat Us" database required.
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Re: How to fight the Borg
Kost, you're one of the old guard - you've been around here long enough to know the answer to that question.kostmayer wrote:Then why had no one else done it during the Battle?
Because Starfleet is fucking stupid.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
Re: How to fight the Borg
And Admirals doubly so, true true When did I become one of the old guard? I come on herre to get away from being a frigging grown up.Captain Seafort wrote:Kost, you're one of the old guard - you've been around here long enough to know the answer to that question.kostmayer wrote:Then why had no one else done it during the Battle?
Because Starfleet is f***ing stupid.
"You ain't gonna get off down the trail a mile or two, and go missing your wife or something, like our last cook done, are you?"
"My wife is in hell, where I sent her. She could make good biscuits, but her behavior was terrible."
"My wife is in hell, where I sent her. She could make good biscuits, but her behavior was terrible."