How to fight the Borg

[Captain Seafort]

When did I become one of the old guard? I come on herre to get away from being a frigging grown up.

You're from July '07 and you've got a decent postcount.

[SolkaTruesilver]

"No causality between the two"?

Well, I see a causality. He listened to the voices for some time, and then immediately ordererd all ships to fire on that single spot. If you don't think there is a hint of causality about it, I think we hit the wall where it gets pointless to argue.

[Captain Seafort]

He listened to the voices for some time, and then immediately ordererd all ships to fire on that single spot.

He was momentarily distracted by the voices, then focused on his job and used a common sense tactic to destroy the cube.

If you don't think there is a hint of causality about it, I think we hit the wall where it gets pointless to argue.

There is not one example of Picard receiving detailed tactical data via his residual connection to the collective. His advantage was limited to being aware of their presence, such as when he realised that some of them had survived the destruction of the sphere. He didn't know they were attempting time travel until they did it, he didn't know when they'd gone back to until Data told him, and he didn't know what their plan was until he downloaded it from a chip taken from a dead Borg. This is pretty simple information - time travel, stop first contact, ET phone home. If he can't pick up that, how exactly is he going to pick up and interpret the detailed technical data required to identify a specifically vulnerable area of the cube?

[SolkaTruesilver]

There is not one example of Picard receiving detailed tactical data via his residual connection to the collective. His advantage was limited to being aware of their presence, such as when he realised that some of them had survived the destruction of the sphere. He didn't know they were attempting time travel until they did it, he didn't know when they'd gone back to until Data told him, and he didn't know what their plan was until he downloaded it from a chip taken from a dead Borg. This is pretty simple information - time travel, stop first contact, ET phone home. If he can't pick up that, how exactly is he going to pick up and interpret the detailed technical data required to identify a specifically vulnerable area of the cube?

He can't access the whole counsciousness of the Borg at the same time, at can only gather surface thoughts. In that case, the Borg's battle protocols, including a weak spot?

TBH, Picard's whole behavior in FC is already out of character for him, as pointed out by Pinklett. I don't have a hard time having Picard with an added Borg-link.

[Tyyr]

Except that the added Borg link doesn't work. This battle would be the only time in the entire movie he got anything more than a tingly of his spidey sense.

[Mikey]

As you said, Solka, "HINT of causality..." (my emphasis.)

There is no evidence of causality between the fact of Picard hearing voices and the fact of his tactical decision. Your inference may make sense to you - in fact, it sort of has to, because it's your inference - but it is nonetheless just an inference.

[Captain Seafort]

He can't access the whole counsciousness of the Borg at the same time, at can only gather surface thoughts. In that case, the Borg's battle protocols, including a weak spot?

Surface thoughts such as "time travel" or "kill Zephram Cochrane"?

TBH, Picard's whole behavior in FC is already out of character for him

On the contrary, it seems entirely in character. He has a track record of loosing his cool when the Borg are involved.

[SolkaTruesilver]

On the contrary, it seems entirely in character. He has a track record of loosing his cool when the Borg are involved.

When? He seemed okay while dealing with Hugh.. He actually grown a soft spot for him.

[Captain Seafort]

When? He seemed okay while dealing with Hugh.. He actually grown a soft spot for him.

"It's not a person damnit it's a Borg!" He changed his views somewhat when he realised that Hugh was behaving as an individual rather than as a Borg, but his initial reaction was a combination of hatred and an eagerness to use Hugh as a weapon. Unfortunately his soft spot for Hugh as an individual caused him to fuck up the opportunity to inflict lasting damage on the collective.

[SolkaTruesilver]

When? He seemed okay while dealing with Hugh.. He actually grown a soft spot for him.

"It's not a person damnit it's a Borg!" He changed his views somewhat when he realised that Hugh was behaving as an individual rather than as a Borg, but his initial reaction was a combination of hatred and an eagerness to use Hugh as a weapon. Unfortunately his soft spot for Hugh as an individual caused him to f**k up the opportunity to inflict lasting damage on the collective.

Thank you for reminding this to me, I am not that familiar with some of these episodes.

So, it's only because of Hugh's personallity resurgence he actually hadn't been aggressive...

[Lighthawk]

I would say, if you want to see some connection between Picard hearing "voices" and choosing a target, I'd say it less him hearing anything as clear as words, and more just getting a sense. The borg are a hive mind, would it not make sense for them to run their ships through thought? I'm not sure if they ever actually showed borg flying their cube with control interfaces or not, but I never saw it so that's what I have to go on. If all the drones and the ships are all connected, then Picard might not have been picking up a worded report "Vital area XX is damaged" so much as just a general feeling, like a person realizing he has a cut on his arm because it hurts.

Granted, there really isn't anything that shows itself as proof, but over all it's a weird scene to have been written in otherwise. It certainly suggests by the way its presented that Picard was somehow using his old connection to the collective to determine a weakness. He "hears voices", looks over the cube and picks a target, and then tells Data to trust him in a manner that suggests he knows something important. If there really is nothing special going on and all he's doing is telling the fleet to stop fighting like novices, then what is the point of presenting the scene like that?

[Coalition]

I'm going by the first good description we've got of them in which Data lays it out that they're highly distributed and there are no concentrated engines, sensors, or weapons.

Som basic ship design philosophies would still be in place. You put your more critical items at the center of the cube, where they are less likely to take damage (like the transwarp gizmo that 7 and Janeway wanted to steal). As a result, in order to seriously damage a Borg cube, you have to get at the critical parts.

Compare that to what the fleet was doing. They were shooting different locations on the surface, maybe forcing the cube to spread its shields to cover all the faces, but they were also spreading ou their attacks, making the job of the shields (and repair systems) easier. Surface hits (like the Defiant's run) hit multiple locations, rather than trying to punch through. The smaller surface hits would be easier for the Borg to repair, compared to a larger hole that damages interior portions.

For Picard's Borg-sense, how about when he was in the silo, and called back to the Enterprise, sensing something was wrong. Or at the end, when he was getting ready to leave, and hears Data?

Picard picked a spot (guided by his Borg connection), and told every ship to hit that one location. They broke through a weakened area, and kept on shooting, damaging more and more sensitive material, until the Borg cube was SOL. It was probably badly damaged by the fleet that had been steadily pounding it (and getting pounded in return), but nobody tried working together to kill it. Working together should be a Starfleet specialty, so maybe the killer instinct has been trained out of Star-fleet?

But this is a philosophy question, so I'll stop.

[thelordharry]

Don't forget the value of a good old kick in the plums!

[Mikey]

I still can't help but think that:

a) concentrating fire on a spot that's already been weakened is evidence of nothing more than common sense, and;

b) Seafort's right - how does it make sense that Picard could "hear" technical data about a weak point in the structure of the cube, but nothing about the Borgs' mission or plans? This is magnified when the compartmentalization of info of the Borg, and their preternatural single-mindedness, mean that the vast majority of the Borg would have no conscious idea of the technical vulnerabilities of the cube.

[SolkaTruesilver]

b) Seafort's right - how does it make sense that Picard could "hear" technical data about a weak point in the structure of the cube, but nothing about the Borgs' mission or plans? This is magnified when the compartmentalization of info of the Borg, and their preternatural single-mindedness, mean that the vast majority of the Borg would have no conscious idea of the technical vulnerabilities of the cube.

Maybe he feel how they are, not what they plan to do?

"I am hurt there" as opposed to "I plan to go there"