Romulan Neutral Zone

[Tyyr]

Except, that, you know, we already mentioned that in the current explored interpretation of events (it's a Kill-free zone), blasting the other side's ship in the Neutral Zone is considered to be an isolated act rather than an act of war. So you can blow up their ships that crosses the NZ without fear of provoking a war.

Yeah, sure.

"You destroyed our ship!"
"We were in the Neutral Zone!"
"Oh... well then never mind."

That's a realistic portrayal of international relation. Just because the treaty says you can do it doesn't mean it's smart to. Any time you blow up someone's major military assets, justifiably, on accident, whatever, they're going to get pissed off. With a group who's already not liking you like the Romulans that's a good way to start a war.

Again, even in this situation it's not the Federation being wusses its them having some restraint and not being cowboys.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Yeah, sure.

"You destroyed our ship!"
"We were in the Neutral Zone!"
"Oh... well then never mind."

That's a realistic portrayal of international relation. Just because the treaty says you can do it doesn't mean it's smart to. Any time you blow up someone's major military assets, justifiably, on accident, whatever, they're going to get pissed off. With a group who's already not liking you like the Romulans that's a good way to start a war.

Again, even in this situation it's not the Federation being wusses its them having some restraint and not being cowboys.

It's not a bad argument, but both government already agreed that the Neutral Zone was a Kill-free zone. A thing about "we don't get too close of each other on purpose, to avoid any unfortunate indicents".

The fact that it was in the Neutral Zone is a clear violation of the treaty, and shooting that ship is perfectly acceptable, as per written in the treaty. I like that interpretation better than "entering the Neutral Zone is an act of war", which could lead to much worse consequence than the lost of a military asset.

And international relations sometimes do work like that, by the way. Any country can actually claim that they will destroy anything that go pass point X, and other countries allowed to defend themselves. Point in case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Si ... ent_(1981)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Si ... ent_(1989)

[BigJKU316]

I don't think it's being wusses, they know if they start shooting at Romulan ships for the hell of it that it'll start a war.

Except, that, you know, we already mentioned that in the current explored interpretation of events (it's a Kill-free zone), blasting the other side's ship in the Neutral Zone is considered to be an isolated act rather than an act of war. So you can blow up their ships that crosses the NZ without fear of provoking a war.

This is nonsensical jibberish. You don't blow up a foreign flagged ship unless you are ready to go to war over the issue. Yeah, you could pass it off as an isolated incident but you never know how the other side will react and if the Romulans wanted a war the last thing you want to do is give them and excuse to blame it on your side.

[SolkaTruesilver]

This is nonsensical jibberish. You don't blow up a foreign flagged ship unless you are ready to go to war over the issue. Yeah, you could pass it off as an isolated incident but you never know how the other side will react and if the Romulans wanted a war the last thing you want to do is give them and excuse to blame it on your side.

If the Romulans wanted to go to war, I doubt they would need an excuse, mate. They'd make up one.

And your interpretation of the situation actually reinforce it, because, as we've seen, Starfleet and the Romulans weren't blowing each other's ship. Well, at least, Starfleet wasn't. The Romulans were happy to try it out whenever they had the chance.

[BigJKU316]

This is nonsensical jibberish. You don't blow up a foreign flagged ship unless you are ready to go to war over the issue. Yeah, you could pass it off as an isolated incident but you never know how the other side will react and if the Romulans wanted a war the last thing you want to do is give them and excuse to blame it on your side.

If the Romulans wanted to go to war, I doubt they would need an excuse, mate. They'd make up one.

And your interpretation of the situation actually reinforce it, because, as we've seen, Starfleet and the Romulans weren't blowing each other's ship. Well, at least, Starfleet wasn't. The Romulans were happy to try it out whenever they had the chance.

When? I can't think of an occurence when they just opened fire on a ship with no provocation during TNG. They tried some sneaky things from time to time. But nothing so blatant as just letting rip at UFP ships.

[Reliant121]

Generally they decloaked in front of the E-D threatened a bit, powered weapons but they never actually fired. They try scare tactics. The closest they came was sealing the Asteroid during the incident to recover to the Pegasus.

[BigJKU316]

Generally they decloaked in front of the E-D threatened a bit, powered weapons but they never actually fired. They try scare tactics. The closest they came was sealing the Asteroid during the incident to recover to the Pegasus.

Exactly. There is a difference between the flash and scare tactics that you would see in the Cold War and the US deciding to torpedo a Russian submarine because it entered the Gulf of Mexico. While in your mind you may be justified in doing so and legally permitted to do so you would never do it because it could lead directly to war.

[Reliant121]

If there is one thing that has been proved time and again it's that the Romulans are not stupid. They know damn well that the Federation is a lot stronger than they are. Hence the neutral zone even exists. They don't want to risk one overzealous commander taking a potshot at a Federation ship and then a fleet of Federation ships plows through the neutral zone. Hence they use the cloaking devices through the neutral zone (so we suspect anyway) so they can monitor the Federation's activity but not invite attention.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Generally they decloaked in front of the E-D threatened a bit, powered weapons but they never actually fired. They try scare tactics. The closest they came was sealing the Asteroid during the incident to recover to the Pegasus.

Actually, I think the closest was in "The Defector", with Tomalak having superiority over Picard and threathened to bring the Enterprise's hulk back to Romulus, but Picard had summoned Klingon reinforcement which saved the day.

[Reliant121]

Ah, I forgot that.

have to remember I wasn't even born, hence I haven't seen that many early TNG.

Tomalak always seemed rather...anomalous for a Romulan. Either way your right.

Although I said Pegasus incident because the Warbird did actually open fire. Not at the Enterprise but it sealed her in the asteroid in an act of hostility.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Although I said Pegasus incident because the Warbird did actually open fire. Not at the Enterprise but it sealed her in the asteroid in an act of hostility.

What are you talking about? It was purely an unfortunate accident. The Romulans even claimed they would be happy to ferry them back home.

[Reliant121]

Christ, you sound like one.

[Tyyr]

It's not a bad argument, but both government already agreed that the Neutral Zone was a Kill-free zone. A thing about "we don't get too close of each other on purpose, to avoid any unfortunate indicents".

The fact that it was in the Neutral Zone is a clear violation of the treaty, and shooting that ship is perfectly acceptable, as per written in the treaty. I like that interpretation better than "entering the Neutral Zone is an act of war", which could lead to much worse consequence than the lost of a military asset.

This, this right here is why I not "Civil". When you say stupid shit don't expect me to not refer to you as a fucking moron. No matter what a piece of paper might say, YOU CAN'T GO BLOWING THE SHIT OUT OF THE OTHER SIDE'S WARSHIPS AND NOT EXPECT IT TO POSSIBLY LEAD TO WAR.

And international relations sometimes do work like that, by the way. Any country can actually claim that they will destroy anything that go pass point X, and other countries allowed to defend themselves. Point in case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Si ... ent_(1981)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Si ... ent_(1989)

Well you tried. You're still an idiot, but you tried. First off, how are our relations with Libya? Yeah, not good. Second, does Libya have the ability to do anything but bitch in the UN? No, they don't. Finally, it was a clash between fighters, which while unfortunate only represent a handful of human lives and a few million dollars of equipment vs. hundreds of lives and billions of dollars of equipment. Find me a case where a US and Russian ships flat out blew each other to hell and both sides just shrugged it off and you'll be to the level we're discussing.

[SolkaTruesilver]

This, this right here is why I not "Civil". When you say stupid s**t don't expect me to not refer to you as a f***ing moron.

Wait. And after this, I am the childish one for not keeping my temper?

I think you have some serious anger issue mate. I mean, I can't keep my temper when people are antagonist and stupidly insulting, so I try to keep that in check. But you can't keep your temper is somebody writes something that you think/feel/know is wrong?

Deep breath. Calm down. Rather than insulting me, how about helping me understand better? Off course I'm gonna keep arguing, 'cause, you know, I didn't pulled my interpretation from my ass, but I actually came to a deduction based on facts and some speculations. Now, you feel that deducation is wrong, so I will bring up the arguments that led me to that statement, so you can either change your own mind about the issue (which I still have yet to see), or you can point out where I got wrong in the first place.

You know. Arguing.

[Tyyr]

Wait. And after this, I am the childish one for not keeping my temper?

No, I'm saying this quite calmly. Notice the lack of an exclamation mark.

Here's the thing. What you're suggesting, that even if it's an acknowledged free fire zone the only reason the UFP doesn't blow up any Romulan ship they find is that they're wusses, is so fucking stupid it shouldn't require an explanation as to why its completely fucking stupid. The fact that you think just because of a treaty you can blow up another nations major combatants is so fucking stupid it shouldn't require an explanation as to why its completely fucking stupid.

The fact that you can't see this makes you an idiot.