Your Favourite Space Battle

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Atekimogus
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Re: Your Favourite Space Battle

Post by Atekimogus »

I am a bit suprised that noone mentioned Q Who and Best of Both Worlds. They are not exactly brillant tactical examples or stunning visuals but they are very suspensful space battles.

Generally I like space battles where everyone seems to have a job on the bridge. Especially on Voyager everytime there was an emergency the only guys actually doing something where just Tuvok and Paris with Janeway just quoting the obvious (want ship xy destroyed/disabled). It is not just Voyager but there are plenty of examples in Star Trek where the CO and XO seem more like a liability than an asset during a crisis, constantly in need of beeing informed of the ships status (which could probably be obtain just looking at their screens for once) without adding "anything" useful. Shining examples are Riker and Jakotay who seem to be completely redundant with no clear job description. Spock was justified on the bridge because he was science officer and that is what he did as long as Kirk was around, but those other two? Shouldn't we only see them when Picard/Janeway are off duty?

I too enjoyed most DS9 battles but somehow they felt to much wing commander to me, if you know what I mean.
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Re: Your Favourite Space Battle

Post by Sionnach Glic »

I never really thought that Q Who was a particularly great battle. It was a solid episode, but not for the combat itself. BOBW, on the other hand, was quite good.
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Re: Your Favourite Space Battle

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Atekimogus wrote:Shining examples are Riker and Jakotay who seem to be completely redundant with no clear job description. Spock was justified on the bridge because he was science officer and that is what he did as long as Kirk was around, but those other two? Shouldn't we only see them when Picard/Janeway are off duty?
In a proper sense they really should be on the battle bridge or whatever would be the backup command and control center for the ship.

In all honesty those ships are not setup for combat at all. It makes no sense to have everyone facing forward. I think the CIC on many modern ships would put them to shame for efficiency of layout. Even stupider is the notion of having admirals/captains commanding whole fleets from the bridge of one ship by issuing orders through a Ferengi ensign. In reality you would need a whole dedicated command center just to manage the fleet with dozens of people.
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Re: Your Favourite Space Battle

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Atekimogus wrote:I am a bit suprised that noone mentioned Q Who and Best of Both Worlds. They are not exactly brillant tactical examples or stunning visuals but they are very suspensful space battles.

Generally I like space battles where everyone seems to have a job on the bridge. Especially on Voyager everytime there was an emergency the only guys actually doing something where just Tuvok and Paris with Janeway just quoting the obvious (want ship xy destroyed/disabled). It is not just Voyager but there are plenty of examples in Star Trek where the CO and XO seem more like a liability than an asset during a crisis, constantly in need of beeing informed of the ships status (which could probably be obtain just looking at their screens for once) without adding "anything" useful. Shining examples are Riker and Jakotay who seem to be completely redundant with no clear job description. Spock was justified on the bridge because he was science officer and that is what he did as long as Kirk was around, but those other two? Shouldn't we only see them when Picard/Janeway are off duty?

I too enjoyed most DS9 battles but somehow they felt to much wing commander to me, if you know what I mean.
It's funny because typically the CO does not stand a watch, thats a Junior Officer thing.
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Re: Your Favourite Space Battle

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BigJKU316 wrote: In all honesty those ships are not setup for combat at all. It makes no sense to have everyone facing forward. I think the CIC on many modern ships would put them to shame for efficiency of layout.
Ironic how the oldest bridge design from Matt Jeffries still seems to be the most sensible one. Shame, that they didn't have the money to make it work properly back in the day. (With that I mean all the screens which should have been bursting with information instead of beeing fixed paintings)
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Re: Your Favourite Space Battle

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One thing I never understood is why the COs tried to micromanage the battle. I read in a non cannon book that it was a Starfleet Reg that prohibited the tactical officer or the helmsman from firing or moving the ship without an order from the "command deck". Not cannon I know, but a nice explination for having to constantly re-order "fire".
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Re: Your Favourite Space Battle

Post by Mikey »

Umm... isn't that what "fire at will" means?
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Re: Your Favourite Space Battle

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Mikey wrote:Umm... isn't that what "fire at will" means?
Didn't it mean "Fire at Will Riker"?
I thought that's why he was always walking hunched forward, like he was ready to dive into an evasive roll or something... :P
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Re: Your Favourite Space Battle

Post by Aaron »

It should, though that in itself is funny. Ships in a battle in RL don't just spam out round and missiles willy nilly, certain things have a higher priority then others. JKU*something, something* has a valid point in that the combat should be managed by a proper CIC.
Didn't it mean "Fire at Will Riker"?
I thought that's why he was always walking hunched forward, like he was ready to dive into an evasive roll or something...
Nah, it's his double chin dragging him down. ;)
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Re: Your Favourite Space Battle

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We didn't see vary many "fire at will" orders in TNG IIRC. They became more common in DS9 during the war, and Voyager where Janeway was on a rampage.
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Re: Your Favourite Space Battle

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Given how fleet battles in DS9 seemed to consist of two fleets slamming into each other's front line and basically flying "through" each others' formation, the use of fire at will orders isn't surprising. Unless there's some particular ship you want to target, your gunners have more than enough to take shots at.
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Re: Your Favourite Space Battle

Post by Mark »

The way they had fleets packed together, it seems that friendly fire would have been an actual danger as well.
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Re: Your Favourite Space Battle

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Sionnach Glic wrote:Given how fleet battles in DS9 seemed to consist of two fleets slamming into each other's front line and basically flying "through" each others' formation, the use of fire at will orders isn't surprising. Unless there's some particular ship you want to target, your gunners have more than enough to take shots at.
Yeah, and my contention (in context at least) is that this is the result of woefully inadquate command and control functions. There are tons of complaints to be made here just based on knowledge that was readily avaliable about the United States Navy in the 1990's.

1. Already covered but there should be a flag bridge from which a fleet is command that is distinct from the ships bridge. An Admiral is really just along for the ride on the captains ship. Having the two priorities in one environment would get confusing to everyone there with different orders being shouted over one another. Get them in different rooms.

2. Given the computing power avaliable some sort of automated battle management and targeting system should be implemented that would do the following things.
a. Coordinate fire in a manner that makes sense by deconflicting targeting priorities among the fleet.
Massed fire on one target will get you a quick kill. Everyone getting their own is a recipe for disaster.
b. Remote engagement is a possibility now and exist today. Simply put good computers should allow
division of responsibility (ie each tactical department has a certain space to cover) but allow an automated
program to select the best weapon positioned to make the engagement, even if that weapon is on another
ship.
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Re: Your Favourite Space Battle

Post by Atekimogus »

BigJKU316 wrote: Yeah, and my contention (in context at least) is that this is the result of woefully inadquate command and control functions.
Funny enough, the Starfleet Universe pays hommage to this via differentiating between normal heavy cruisers CA for example and command and control cruisers CC.


BigJKU316 wrote:1. Already covered but there should be a flag bridge from which a fleet is command that is distinct from the ships bridge. An Admiral is really just along for the ride on the captains ship. Having the two priorities in one environment would get confusing to everyone there with different orders being shouted over one another. Get them in different rooms.
Now I am not a big fan of outsourcing important things to the holodeck but in this case, wouldn't a slightly modified holodeck be the most perfect spot from which to coordinate large engagements. The things is basically a large 3d screen.
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Re: Your Favourite Space Battle

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BigJKU316 wrote:Now I am not a big fan of outsourcing important things to the holodeck but in this case, wouldn't a slightly modified holodeck be the most perfect spot from which to coordinate large engagements. The things is basically a large 3d screen.
The Whilestars did something similar in B5. Looked a bit disorientating to me, but if the detail was scaled down a little it could work. Doesn't need to be a full colour lifelike image, just a 3d tactical display. Though to me a big table based 3d display would be preferable, something like a huge 3d chess board.
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