Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

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Re: Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

Post by Tsukiyumi »

GrahamKennedy wrote:Well everyone who joins the Federation does so voluntarily, of course. They want to be there. They aren't constantly looking to rebel or get revenge for their conquest.
Right; however, some differences in culture and doctrine are bound to arise from time to time, and I'm a bit surprised *cough*writer's fiat*cough* that it doesn't cause more internal problems for the seemingly perfect Federation.
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Re: Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

Post by Captain Picard's Hair »

Even "The Wisdom of Crowds" itself admits that its formula only works under the right conditions, which rarely fall into place so neatly in the real world without planning. It's a very specific effect, and fairly fragile. Trek takes a similar principle as the norm within the UFP. In a more realistic UFP, you might have the same number of technologies available but not as much cooperation in developing it as a shared enterprise for the good of the collective.
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Re: Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

Post by Tsukiyumi »

If they approached modern America for membership, for example, a million people would cry "Socialism!" and the whole thing would go downhill from there.
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Re: Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

Post by BigJKU316 »

Captain Picard's Hair wrote:
Tsukiyumi wrote:
Captain Picard's Hair wrote:...This social strength could be quite relevant, if subtle.
Funny, I've always thought that the sometimes conflicting doctrines of so many races might lead to internecine issues that might in fact, weaken the Federation in some respects. That isn't what we see, of course, because the UFP is paradise.
Interesting. My first thought was to compare the member races of the UFP to a group of races which resent the overbearing presence of their overlords as in the empires neighboring the UFP. I guess there's a group done right, and a group done poorly: maybe the UFP holds them just far enough apart to keep them at peace. There must be some reason so many races willingly sign on the dotted line (or equivalent thereof) and the UFP internally does seem fairly steady (from the little we've seen).

A couurterpoint is the divisiveness within our own, single species at the current time, so perhaps whatever the Federation's secret is, we need it! You do have a point, though. The Federation has resisted internal fracture despite the different views within.
To a large extent the fact that there is effectively unlimited space really solves a lot of these problems. It also seems throughout the series that one can be part of the Federation while still having your own rules (within a broader context of the charter of course) on your own planet.
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Re: Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

Post by Reliant121 »

I find the article interesting if you focus on humanity solely, when you compare it to the other races in the galaxy. If you have a look at Earth, of all the cultures/races/architectural differences etc etc. Then you can see an immediate thing that makes humanit stand out. Its diversity. No other race has ever shown the capacity to be so bluntly different on a genetic and biological level, as well as on a philosophical and even theologoical level. The number of different ethnicities on Earth alone is enough for it to be told: White/black/Asian/Middle Eastern/Antarctic/Native American/Aboriginal...there is so much pure diversity. No other race has ever shown the level of diversity that we have. no other race has ever shown as much variance in mindset as we have, i mean look at religion: on earth there are 7 mainstream religions and thousands of smaller ones. On Vulcan theres...well...1 thats accepted. The last time someone opposed it, there was a bloody civil war. The time before that, it caused a second race to be created (Romulans). No other race is inherently stable in its diversity like humanity.
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Re: Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

Post by Graham Kennedy »

One of my all time favourite moments in television history showcases that so perfectly... in Babylon 5, during one episode the Ambassadors from each race were demonstrating their religious system. So the Narn show theirs, the Centauri show theirs, the Minbari show theirs, etc. When it came to Earth's turn...
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Re: Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

Post by Coalition »

Captain Picard's Hair wrote:Interesting. My first thought was to compare the member races of the UFP to a group of races which resent the overbearing presence of their overlords as in the empires neighboring the UFP. I guess there's a group done right, and a group done poorly: maybe the UFP holds them just far enough apart to keep them at peace. There must be some reason so many races willingly sign on the dotted line (or equivalent thereof) and the UFP internally does seem fairly steady (from the little we've seen).

A couurterpoint is the divisiveness within our own, single species at the current time, so perhaps whatever the Federation's secret is, we need it! You do have a point, though. The Federation has resisted internal fracture despite the different views within.
I'd argue that the races see three options:
1) Join Klingon/Romulan/Cardassian/Ferengi empire, and be exploited
2) Remain independant, and be at risk of pirate attacks
3) Join the Federation and lose your culture to the Federation

Joining the Federation would be seen as the best of a set of bad choices.


As to the other races being predictable (Klingons aggressive, Ferengi greedy, Romulans sneaky, Cardasians disciplined backstabbers, etc) that is writers mainly being lazy.

Now a Klingon scientist that 'fought the universe' for one more scrap of knowledge would be a little bit better.

Or a Romulan berserker, who comes in cloaked, but then kills every enemy ship that is within range would be interesting.

Or a Ferengi mercenary crew. You pay for their services, and they kill whoever is needed. Or just crank up the Ferengi so they are a capitalist style economy, compared to the Federation's equal economy. If a scientist wanted to get instant gratification for his work, he goes to the Ferengi, provides the technology, and gets a lot of latinum from the Ferengi government. One example would be the siblings in "Force of Nature", whose research was turned down by the Federation Science Council, and they had no other option but to deploy the mines. A competing Science Council could have looked over their data, and seen any potential flaws (or advantages, making the enemy's territory impassable by warp vessels).

Or a drunk Cardassian that picks fights.
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Re: Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

Post by Atekimogus »

Well altough good points all around what I find interesting is that altough humanity seems quick to spread its culture to other races, humanity itself seems to be pretty much unchanged from the centuries of friendly exposure to alien races.

Now prior to ENT I wouldn't have said this to be a great deal, I pretty much assumed that humanity had a leadership role in all things from the start and after the mayor war with the romulans and the forming of the UFP they spread their culture to membership worlds which is rather easy if you just crushed a big bad boy of the neighborhood and everyone else is hesitant to mess with you.

But ENT showed us a completely different picture, with humans the weak new kid on the block with next to no experience in interstellar travel with all other powers at least a few centuries ahead. Now regardless of how fast they would be able to close the gap one would assume that humans were not to shabby to imitate, learn and adapt from other races such as Andorians (were space navies are concerned for example) or adapting some meassuring systems in use from other races etc. yet I never really got the feeling that humanity - as a whole - was much influenced by other cultures.

To be honest I would have to think really hard to come up with something humans seemed to have adapted from other cultures. Maybe it's because all UFP member are so much alike that one can hardly contribute a trait to only one race but still, humans became not really more logical or adopted parts of vulcan philosophy, they don't seem to insult each other for fun like the tellarites nor do they share anything with the andorians.
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Re: Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

Post by McAvoy »

Something about the Trek aliens that I was thinking about fairly recently was that each of major species of the galaxy are practically extremely dominant forms of the basic human culture. Klingons being warrior-like (very much like many earlier civilizations). Ferengi who love money and probably would right at home in the US or Europe. I can keep going. Many people think for example the UFP is the US or Nato and the Klingons are the Soviets and perhaps the Romulans are the Chinese. I think narrowing them down to modern cultures isn't accurate.

For example the UFP can be equaly compared to the US or the Roman Empire. Of course the US was based on the Roman Empire but improved upon as well. That and Star Trek is made in America so American culture will be present within the series.

It does go to show that the UFP can deal more easily with a warrior-like culture like the Klingons than a secretive culture like the Romulans.

It also does go to show that the Dominion (the UFP's equal or superior) considered the UFP to be the greater threat of the Allies.
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Re: Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

Post by shran »

Another thing isn't mentioned yet. for this, I'd like to drag in the 19th century Industrial revolution. England started up its industry in late 18th, early 19th century and was in a leading position for several years.
then, around 1840-ish, France got into industry as well, getting perhaps a slight lead. England off course compensates and tries to regain that lead.
Then, in the 1870's Germany as a nation arisises, and get up in the lead subsequently, and soon outproduces England and France combined.

My point is, it is logical, or it may be expected that the Federation rose so quickly to power, as new kids on the block get immediate access to all the newer gimmicks and don't have to do as many steps in between to get to the top. All the knowledge is out there and ready to be picked up. The longer you are in a leading position, the harder it gets to keep that position. Progress tends to slow down as you are already at the top. Underdogs on the other hand, tend to compete with the leader, surpassing them and getting the same trouble as the former leading one.
that may explain some technological issues we see in the Federation, as replicators, transporters and warp don't seem to have changed fundamentally.
Same thing with the republlic in Star Wars, most technologies are completely developped.
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Re: Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

Post by RK_Striker_JK_5 »

I think Diego Reyes in the latest 'Vanguard' novels summed it up best. If the Klingons want to expand, they have to pay for it with blood and treasure. With thr Federation, they simply show up and say, "Hello."
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Re: Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

Post by Vic »

I am not sure how it can be seen that there is a all overbearing, all consuming "Federation Culture". The Bolians clearly have their own seperate culture, the Betazeds as well. Even the older members such as the Vulcans have their own clearly delineated culture independant of the Federation as a whole. If there is such a thing as a "Federation Culture" it is so broadly encompassing, so unspecified that no matter what culture one encounters there will be at least one point of connection with it.
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Re: Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

Post by McAvoy »

shran wrote:Another thing isn't mentioned yet. for this, I'd like to drag in the 19th century Industrial revolution. England started up its industry in late 18th, early 19th century and was in a leading position for several years.
then, around 1840-ish, France got into industry as well, getting perhaps a slight lead. England off course compensates and tries to regain that lead.
Then, in the 1870's Germany as a nation arisises, and get up in the lead subsequently, and soon outproduces England and France combined.

My point is, it is logical, or it may be expected that the Federation rose so quickly to power, as new kids on the block get immediate access to all the newer gimmicks and don't have to do as many steps in between to get to the top. All the knowledge is out there and ready to be picked up. The longer you are in a leading position, the harder it gets to keep that position. Progress tends to slow down as you are already at the top. Underdogs on the other hand, tend to compete with the leader, surpassing them and getting the same trouble as the former leading one.
that may explain some technological issues we see in the Federation, as replicators, transporters and warp don't seem to have changed fundamentally.
Same thing with the republlic in Star Wars, most technologies are completely developped.
I agree. Though you did leave out the US. The US's industry even after the Civil War was on par with the rest of the world. It wasn't until 1880's that the industry started to exceed other countries. Only Germany came second to the US by 1900. So you have these three established powerful countries, two of the three with global interests, then this new kid on the block (US) eventually pushes two of the three countries aside and practically allies themselves with the third (British). It has been said by the end of the First World War, the US was already a superpower but isolationist movements prevented the US from taking that place.

There are also other factors within the US and outside even within other countries as well. But generally matches from what we know or theorize on the Federation itself.
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Re: Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

Post by Tyyr »

Tsukiyumi wrote:Right; however, some differences in culture and doctrine are bound to arise from time to time, and I'm a bit surprised *cough*writer's fiat*cough* that it doesn't cause more internal problems for the seemingly perfect Federation.
But really how much do we see of the internal politics of the Federation? Most of our information on them is solely from the POV of Starfleet. They're going to be executing the policies of the Federation but they aren't making them by and large. Also the people who are going to choose to serve are going to have quite a few traits in common which could minimize the division on some policy issues. It'd be like trying to gauge US politics when the only exposure to the US is via the POV of an aircraft carrier.
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