Are the other species scared of Humans / The Federation?

[Graham Kennedy]

I've been wondering about this lately, and today I read an article about the Ferengi that set me thinking more.

The article suggested that there was only one sensible reason why the Ferengi were such a mystery to the Federation in 2364. We know the Ferengi were already in contact with the Cardassians, the Bajorans and others at that date, people the Federation had known for decades. We know Ferengi ships had been in Earth territory even 200 years before 2364 thanks to Enterprise. The author suggested that the Ferengi deliberately avoided contact with the Federation because they were frightened of the impact dealing with them would have on their way of life. Specifically, the Federation - or bits of - have apparently evolved beyond the need for money and a scarcity based economy, and his argument was that the Ferengi were terrified as to how close contact with such a thing might affect them.

He concluded that in large part they were right. Look at what happened to the Ferengi after they met Starfleet - females in clothing, massive economic reform, Rom as Nagus.

Look at how others who oppose the Federation fare. For all the bitching about how Starfleet do things, they have a 200+ year streak of total success in every war, no matter what the odds or opponents they face. The Klingons went from feared warriors who had it all over Humans, to being defeated by them, to being somewhat junior partners in an alliance - and whilst they retain their love of combat, their "conquer and enslave" days are apparently far behind them.

The Romulans? Big enemies early on, sent packing to hide behind the neutral zone, and not much of a threat to anybody by TNG.

The Cardassians? Started as enemies, ended up with their entire culture pretty much destroyed.

And so on, and so on. A lot of these powers had been a significant presence in the galaxy for a very long time, and then suddenly here's the Humans, and within the space of 200 years they've made up the entire gap in technology and power base.

And it's not so much the military and economic power that's most important. The Human philosophy seems to be one that is massively successful, with an amazing ability to "seep into" other cultures and "subvert" them. It's summed up best by the Quark/Garak exchange re. Root Beer in Way of the Warrior :

"It's vile!"
"I know. It's so bubbly and cloying... and happy."
"Just like the Federation."
"But you know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you start to like it."
"It's insidious!"
"Just like the Federation."

And amusingly, both men's cultures lost their own traditions over the next few years and either reformed to be closer to the Federation way (Ferengi), or will surely do so after the war (Cardassia).

Most tellingly, even the Human's closest allies feel it, as we learned in Enterprise from Ambassador Soval :

"We don't know what to do about humans. Of all the species we've made contact with, yours is the only one we can't define. You have the arrogance of Andorians, the stubborn pride of Tellarites... One moment, you're as driven by your emotions as Klingons, and the next, you confound us by suddenly embracing logic."
"I'm sure those qualities are found in every species."
"Not in such confusing abundance."
"Ambassador... are Vulcans afraid of humans?"
Soval nods

And well they might be. Given how fast Humans have caught up and surpassed everybody else, what does the next hundred years hold? The next thousand?

Hell, it's even been implied that the Q themselves are afraid of Human potential.

[Tsukiyumi]

It would explain why superpowers like the Borg and the Q have such an interest in humanity. They're somewhat leery of our potential.

BTW, that exchange between Garak and Quark is one of my favorite Trek scenes.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

BTW, that exchange between Garak and Quark is one of my favorite Trek scenes.

Seconded, as well that exchange between Archer and Soval is one of those very few scenes from Enterprise that has stuck with me.

On-topic though, its a very interesting point (even if OOU, somewhat inevitable given the general philosophy of Trek)

[Tsukiyumi]

(even if OOU, somewhat inevitable given the natural human-centric bias of Trek)

Fixed it for ya.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

[BigJKU316]

I think they should be for a variety of reasons.

From a pure military/industrial standpoint the Federation by all rights should vastly outpace nearby powers, particularly if it decided to do so. The other Empires appear to be mostly mono-species dominated. To me that means they had a home planet, spread out and colonized some more planets and so on. The Federation however is a conglomeration of homeworlds of which at least 4 (Earth, Vulcan, Andoria, Tellar) all of which were advanced races at the time they joined. Then every time someone else joins they would get yet another homeworld type population and resources added to their mix. Simple logic dictates to me that there are going to be a ton more people and potential industrial capacity in the Federation than in a mono-species empire.

As far as direct military action I would also venture that humans, even if they are reluctant to engage in such activity by the TNG era, are actually pretty well suited for it. Starfleet retains a lot of USN and Royal Navy tradition and even though it probably would start a long debate I would rate those two organizations as two of the most impressive outfits of the past 300 years on Earth.

There is a clear line of command, people willing and ready to follow orders and by and large they seem to operate as a cohesive group. Contrast this with the Klingons where at various times we have seen fights to the death for the right to command a ship, rouge ships engaging in private wars and leaders just wasting ships in a war for no other reason than petty political infighting. These are all outgrowths of a proud, brave warrior culture, but are not really conducive to operating as a cohesive military fighting force.

I think the Defiant and Prometheus are just the first tiny examples of what Starfleet could do if it wanted to. I mean the Klingons and Romulans basically built pure combat ships that were beaten by a flying hotel with regularity (GCS) and totally overwhelmed dealing with something like the Prometheus.

Culturally I think you see the same thing you see with Western Culture and many of the more restrictive cultures on Earth just played out on a larger scale. Simple exposure to it is very dangerous for other societies. Women see other women in clothing and say why do I have to run around naked. These mono-cultures have likely been very stable for a long time but they are not really well setup to deal with questions like that. For the Federation it is a non-issue. You want to run around naked that is fine for you but does not work well for me. So be it.

[Graham Kennedy]

I think you're dead on with a lot of that.

The Federation do seem to be the (idealized) "United States" of the alpha quadrant. Militarily they're a match or better for all their rivals, and it's pretty clear that they're only that limited because they choose to be.

What it seems to come down to is that the Federation maximizes personal freedoms. It gives them a vitality and flexibility that nobody else seems to be able to match, and most individuals if not societies seem to envy.

[Sonic Glitch]

I
"It's vile!"
"I know. It's so bubbly and cloying... and happy."
"Just like the Federation."
"But you know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you start to like it."
"It's insidious!"
"Just like the Federation."

Most tellingly, even the Human's closest allies feel it, as we learned in Enterprise from Ambassador Soval :

"We don't know what to do about humans. Of all the species we've made contact with, yours is the only one we can't define. You have the arrogance of Andorians, the stubborn pride of Tellarites... One moment, you're as driven by your emotions as Klingons, and the next, you confound us by suddenly embracing logic."
"I'm sure those qualities are found in every species."
"Not in such confusing abundance."
"Ambassador... are Vulcans afraid of humans?"
Soval nods

And well they might be. Given how fast Humans have caught up and surpassed everybody else, what does the next hundred years hold? The next thousand?

Hell, it's even been implied that the Q themselves are afraid of Human potential.

It's even mentioned in one of the Star Trek Books (Ship of the Line, a story of the launch of the E-E) where one of the characters (Captain Bateson from Cause and Effect") states that one of the strengths of the Federation is that there enemy's can't seem to figure them out. A Klingon Commander is a Klingon Commander; trained to fight and occasionally strategize. Odds are with a Klingon you're meeting the "warrior" type. But with Starfleet you have Captains who were Scientists, or Engineers or Historians or what-have-you; you never know what you are going to get.

I'm not sure I'd say the Q are afraid of human potential, but maybe they recognized that one day Humans could be there equals in a way the Organians and Metrons aren't?

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

I
"It's vile!"
"I know. It's so bubbly and cloying... and happy."
"Just like the Federation."
"But you know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you start to like it."
"It's insidious!"
"Just like the Federation."

Most tellingly, even the Human's closest allies feel it, as we learned in Enterprise from Ambassador Soval :

"We don't know what to do about humans. Of all the species we've made contact with, yours is the only one we can't define. You have the arrogance of Andorians, the stubborn pride of Tellarites... One moment, you're as driven by your emotions as Klingons, and the next, you confound us by suddenly embracing logic."
"I'm sure those qualities are found in every species."
"Not in such confusing abundance."
"Ambassador... are Vulcans afraid of humans?"
Soval nods

And well they might be. Given how fast Humans have caught up and surpassed everybody else, what does the next hundred years hold? The next thousand?

Hell, it's even been implied that the Q themselves are afraid of Human potential.

It's even mentioned in one of the Star Trek Books (Ship of the Line, a story of the launch of the E-E) where one of the characters (Captain Bateson from Cause and Effect") states that one of the strengths of the Federation is that there enemy's can't seem to figure them out. A Klingon Commander is a Klingon Commander; trained to fight and occasionally strategize. Odds are with a Klingon you're meeting the "warrior" type. But with Starfleet you have Captains who were Scientists, or Engineers or Historians or what-have-you; you never know what you are going to get.

I'm not sure I'd say the Q are afraid of human potential, but maybe they recognized that one day Humans could be there equals in a way the Organians and Metrons aren't?

Human potenital with the Q's power. Scary.

And the scene with Garak and Quark might've been better... if they were using root beer instead of that... fruit punch or whatever.

[Tsukiyumi]

...But with Starfleet you have Captains who were Scientists, or Engineers or Historians or what-have-you; you never know what you are going to get...

So... the Federation is like a box of chocolates...

[Captain Picard's Hair]

I think they should be for a variety of reasons.

From a pure military/industrial standpoint the Federation by all rights should vastly outpace nearby powers, particularly if it decided to do so. The other Empires appear to be mostly mono-species dominated. To me that means they had a home planet, spread out and colonized some more planets and so on. The Federation however is a conglomeration of homeworlds of which at least 4 (Earth, Vulcan, Andoria, Tellar) all of which were advanced races at the time they joined. Then every time someone else joins they would get yet another homeworld type population and resources added to their mix. Simple logic dictates to me that there are going to be a ton more people and potential industrial capacity in the Federation than in a mono-species empire.

Most of the other 'monocultural" powers would more likely subjugate and exploit any races they come across. Whatever technical gifts those races had to offer would be largely wasted; even if the Klingons saw a technology they liked they wouldn't be able to understand it and their tactics would tend to limit cooperation from the scientists and engineers of the conquered race. Since Trek has already offered the comparison to the Roman Empire, I'll use it: the Romans conquered land for the purpose of taxing it but any other races were simply "barbarians."

For the UFP, new races add to the cultural - and technical - base of the Federation, strengthening it. Each new planet the Klingons or Romulans subjugate taxes the resources of their empires just a bit more but don't give as much in return as new UFP members do to it. It's been shown either directly or through implication that the Federation absorbs new technical abilities with each new member race, and by allowing ideas to be shared amongst a diverse group of species and viewpoints, the UFP is able to develop technology much more readily than their more single-minded neighbors.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

It's also likely you'd find more solidarity among the races of the UFP than between the Romulans or Klingons and any subjugated groups, naturally. This social strength could be quite relevant, if subtle.

[Tsukiyumi]

...This social strength could be quite relevant, if subtle.

Funny, I've always thought that the sometimes conflicting doctrines of so many races might lead to internecine issues that might in fact, weaken the Federation in some respects. That isn't what we see, of course, because the UFP is paradise.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

...This social strength could be quite relevant, if subtle.

Funny, I've always thought that the sometimes conflicting doctrines of so many races might lead to internecine issues that might in fact, weaken the Federation in some respects. That isn't what we see, of course, because the UFP is paradise.

Interesting. My first thought was to compare the member races of the UFP to a group of races which resent the overbearing presence of their overlords as in the empires neighboring the UFP. I guess there's a group done right, and a group done poorly: maybe the UFP holds them just far enough apart to keep them at peace. There must be some reason so many races willingly sign on the dotted line (or equivalent thereof) and the UFP internally does seem fairly steady (from the little we've seen).

A couurterpoint is the divisiveness within our own, single species at the current time, so perhaps whatever the Federation's secret is, we need it! You do have a point, though. The Federation has resisted internal fracture despite the different views within.

[Graham Kennedy]

Well everyone who joins the Federation does so voluntarily, of course. They want to be there. They aren't constantly looking to rebel or get revenge for their conquest.