Spacedock Idea

[stitch626]

Perhaps its for protection. Those doors add an obstruction to weapons fire should an enemy get the shields down. Of course, this would only apply to none battle worthy ships...

[Mikey]

Why? As I've stated before ships designed to sail through the Panama Canal are built to the point where there is only a foot or two of clearance on either side. In space you don't even have to deal with water currents causing problems.

You're going backwards. We're discussing building Spacedock to accomodate imminent starship designs, not vice verse. I only mentioned limiting Excelsior further to address your point which referenced... nothing, really. The Panama Canal is a preexisting structure, and was built to accomodate ships larger than were prevalent at that specific time. Now, ships may be limited in size to use the canal simply because the builders want to use it. Not at all analagous to the situation we're discussing.

As to the rest of your point about not wanting to update designs - that's all fine, but doesn't speak to my point. The Excelsior, or at least the upcoming ability to build ships that size, was imminent at the time of Spacedock's construction. Whether it was lack of foresight on the part of the engineers or idiotic inflexibility on the part of the brass refusing to allow the engineers to update the design - I don't much care, really. I never said who I deemed to be at fault. But the fact that it could have been done better is still extant.

[Tyyr]

You're going backwards. We're discussing building Spacedock to accomodate imminent starship designs, not vice verse. I only mentioned limiting Excelsior further to address your point which referenced... nothing, really. The Panama Canal is a preexisting structure, and was built to accomodate ships larger than were prevalent at that specific time. Now, ships may be limited in size to use the canal simply because the builders want to use it. Not at all analagous to the situation we're discussing.

No, the exact statement you made was, and that I was replying to was:

If they built Excelsior to fit the extant Spacedock, wouldn't they have built it with more clearance?

That if Stardock existed before the Excelsior why didn't they design the Excelsior with more clearance? My comment about the Panama canal is perfectly valid. In this question both Spacedock and the Canal are existent structures. The ships traversing the canals and the Excelsior are both new designs that need to fit those structures.

As to the rest of your point about not wanting to update designs - that's all fine, but doesn't speak to my point. The Excelsior, or at least the upcoming ability to build ships that size, was imminent at the time of Spacedock's construction. Whether it was lack of foresight on the part of the engineers or idiotic inflexibility on the part of the brass refusing to allow the engineers to update the design - I don't much care, really. I never said who I deemed to be at fault. But the fact that it could have been done better is still extant.

And are you going to continue to ignore the point that the size increase is unprecedented? And that just because the technology exists to build larger ship doesn't mean you're going to? We could build aircraft carriers 2,000ft long but no one expects us too. On top of that we don't know when Spacedock was built. Aside from before the Excelsior we don't know, and the older it is the less its a SNAFU you can claim it is.

[Captain Seafort]

As to the rest of your point about not wanting to update designs - that's all fine, but doesn't speak to my point. The Excelsior, or at least the upcoming ability to build ships that size, was imminent at the time of Spacedock's construction.

Was it? Do we have any hard dates for when Spacedock came into service? For all we know, it could have been around for decades, and been designed to accommodate all extant or conceived ships with room to spare. Excelsior may simply have been a generation or two beyond that.

[Mikey]

No, the exact statement you made was, and that I was replying to was:

If they built Excelsior to fit the extant Spacedock, wouldn't they have built it with more clearance?

Yes. Like I said, I only added that to answer the point you made about building the Excelsior to fit. I never claimed that it was so, I said if it was - like you suggested, than why... hell, you can read it right above this sentence if you'd care to read my posts before replying.

That if Stardock existed before the Excelsior why didn't they design the Excelsior with more clearance?

Like I said, that was your idea about limiting Excelsior to fit, not mine.

My comment about the Panama canal is perfectly valid.

Only if you assume that Spacedock was around a century or so before Excelsior. If that's what you're selling, I ain't buying.

And are you going to continue to ignore the point that the size increase is unprecedented?

I never ignored that point. It's just meaningless in this conversation. The salient point isn't that Excelsior's size was unprecedented - it's that it was predictable. I've mentioned that many times - are you going to keep ignoring that point?

...and the older it is the less its a SNAFU you can claim it is.

Was it? Do we have any hard dates for when Spacedock came into service? For all we know, it could have been around for decades, and been designed to accommodate all extant or conceived ships with room to spare. Excelsior may simply have been a generation or two beyond that.

It could have been built from clouds and fairy dust. These are both correct positions, but need us to assume something for which there is no evidence. If Spacedock predated TOS, then sure, you'd both be correct. I can't make up the fact of Spacedock's existence that long ago just to support a position, though.

[Tyyr]

Like I said, that was your idea about limiting Excelsior to fit, not mine.

So what are you suggesting, that Spacedock was built to fit the Excelsior or that the fact that Excelsior barely fits through the doors is just a happy accident? Either Spacedock was designed to fit around Excelsior or Excelsior was designed to fit in Spacedock. It's one or the other because assuming that one or the other didn't take the other into consideration and they just manage to fit as a happy accident is assuming a level of incompetence that even I don't think Starfleet is capable of. Given that Spacedock was built prior to Excelsior the most logical conclusion is that the tight fit is a result of Excelsior being designed to fit through the existing doors as they were designed.

Only if you assume that Spacedock was around a century or so before Excelsior. If that's what you're selling, I ain't buying.

Why a century? If Spacedock was built prior to the Excelsior being designed that's all it takes. A few years is all it takes for a project like Spacedock to be started and reach important milestones before the Excelsior design does.

I never ignored that point. It's just meaningless in this conversation. The salient point isn't that Excelsior's size was unprecedented - it's that it was predictable. I've mentioned that many times - are you going to keep ignoring that point?

You're assuming it's predictable. I've stated repeatedly that simply having the technology to do something doesn't mean you're planning to do it. Again, I point out that while we can currently build 2,000 foot long aircraft carriers that doesn't mean we're planning on it. Unprecedented leads to unpredictable. Take a look at the designs we know of prior to and after, the Excelsior is the biggest jump in size I can see. Heck, looking back over naval designs in reality I can't find a time when the capital ship size tripled in a single generation either. Additionally the Excelsior is stated as being an experimental prototype with transwarp drive. Historically size and mass predictions for things of that type are not typically really on target. All that adds up to my assertion that its highly likely that even if Spacedock was a recent construct they might not have seen Excelsior's size coming.

It could have been built from clouds and fairy dust. These are both correct positions, but need us to assume something for which there is no evidence. If Spacedock predated TOS, then sure, you'd both be correct. I can't make up the fact of Spacedock's existence that long ago just to support a position, though.

And no one is suggesting that it's pre-TOS. We are saying it's definitely pre-Excelsior which means its a TOS era construct. It doesn't take much time for Spacedock to have been designed and constructed before Excelsior was dreamed up.

[Sonic Glitch]

And no one is suggesting that it's pre-TOS. We are saying it's definitely pre-Excelsior which means its a TOS era construct. It doesn't take much time for Spacedock to have been designed and constructed before Excelsior was dreamed up.

Wait, is there any reason the two can't be reasonably concurrent?

[Lazar]

Wait, is there any reason the two can't be reasonably concurrent?

I would go with the Kennedy brothers' conjecture that the Spacedock was built shortly after TMP - in which case they should have anticipated that a bigger next gen capital ship would be coming along soon.

[Atekimogus]

Depends on how long you would need to build one of those things. Given that we have examples of ships who spent quite a few years in construction the spacedock beeing built after TMP might be rather tight to squeeze in before The Search of Spock. Not impossible though I guess.

[Graham Kennedy]

I always had the impression that the big dock area of Spacedock was pressurised, or at least able to be pressurised. What's the point of enclosing it otherwise?

That seems rather inpractical to me considering the huge area you would need to pressurize. If this would be an option the interior of the thing would most likely consist of compartments so you wouldn't need to create an atmosphere everywhere when you really need it only around one ship.

It could be that the interior is subdivided by forcefields. But whether it is or not, I'd say that the enclosing of the interior is telling; I just don't see any other reason to enclose the structure like that.

Also what woult be the advantage apart from some dockworkers maybe beeing able to float around the dock without a space suit? When carrying out ship repairs one could even argue you wouldn't want an inflammable atmosphere anywhere near the nearest leaking plasma conduit.

The ability to work in a shirtsleeve environment would be a huge deal. Even in Trek space suits are big clumsy things. Being able to go without them would be a huge boon to repair crews.

As for the doors, I still don't understand why they couldn't just enlarge them. Making a bigger hole in it and covering it up with another set of doors seems incredibly simple to me.

Like I said, seems to me that the simplest option is that those are the largest doors they could build and still keep them airtight.

[Mikey]

assuming that one or the other didn't take the other into consideration and they just manage to fit as a happy accident is assuming a level of incompetence that even I don't think Starfleet is capable of.

Yet. there it is - if it were anything else, there would have been more clearance.

Why a century? If Spacedock was built prior to the Excelsior being designed that's all it takes. A few years is all it takes for a project like Spacedock to be started and reach important milestones before the Excelsior design does.

Because that's the only way to make it analogous to your Panama Canal example.

You're assuming it's predictable. I've stated repeatedly that simply having the technology to do something doesn't mean you're planning to do it....

Of course I am. Nobody would have built a ship so much larger than anything else extant without planning to do so.

And no one is suggesting that it's pre-TOS. We are saying it's definitely pre-Excelsior which means its a TOS era construct. It doesn't take much time for Spacedock to have been designed and constructed before Excelsior was dreamed up.

I understand that you're not saying that Spacedock was pre-TOS. I'm saying that if it wasn't, then it was contemporary enough to the Excelsior that it shows a distinct lack of forethought. And it wasn't TOS, exactly - it's first appearance was in STIII, same as Excelsior.

[Tyyr]

Yet. there it is - if it were anything else, there would have been more clearance.

Ok, please explain why if they were designing Excelsior they would need more than a couple meters of clearance to get out the doors. Assuming the Excelsiors were made to fit Spacedock's doors.

Because that's the only way to make it analogous to your Panama Canal example.

The crux of the Panama canal analogy isn't the time frame. It's that you can move ships that are only a meter or two smaller than the canal through it. Given the lack of water and the presence of far more precise methods of moving the ships than rope and locomotive engines why do you need doors with a lot more clearance? Hell, it's space, roll the ship on its side if you really want to and get it out. Actually that lends even more credence to the fact that they weren't worried about the clearance. If it really was as tight as you think it is they could have just rolled the ship 90 degrees and had a hell of a lot more room. Apparently they didn't think it was a big deal.

Of course I am. Nobody would have built a ship so much larger than anything else extant without planning to do so.

Of course they were planning to build the ships and did so. However planning only gets you in the ball park and if Spacedock was built prior to planning for the Excelsior's getting underway then it doesn't really matter. Again, you assume that plans for the Excelsior or a ship her size were in the works when Spacedock was at a point in her design that changes to accommodate the Excelsiors could be made. Forecasts for the next generation of naval ships are typically pretty bad, even for your own fleet. Until something actually moves into the detailed design stage its still just vaporware.

I understand that you're not saying that Spacedock was pre-TOS. I'm saying that if it wasn't, then it was contemporary enough to the Excelsior that it shows a distinct lack of forethought. And it wasn't TOS, exactly - it's first appearance was in STIII, same as Excelsior.

Yes, that was the first time we saw it. However at the time everyone was "ohh"ing and "ahh"ing over the Excelsior and not a peep was made about Spacedock. It's circumstantial but it's all we've got. Also, I have to point out that it is incredibly nearsighted to claim that since you think Excelsior was made about the same time as Spacedock then obviously someone fucked up because it should have been bigger. It wouldn't have taken much of a lag, even a handful of years of difference in their planning, specifically Spacedock prior to Excelsior, for the Spacedock designers to have been caught off guard by Excelsior and have made doors not large enough to accommodate the sudden swell in ship sizes. It's not like Starfleet has a nice chart up on its wall detailing predicted sizes of starships it hasn't even started to design yet.

To me it makes far more sense, based off what we've seen to assume that Excelsior was designed after Spacedock and because of this Excelsior was designed to just squeeze through Spacedock's doors so as to maximize the ship's size and still get it in. That makes sense to me.

At this point I don't think either of us is making headway with the other and we're just going in circles. I've said my peace.

[Mikey]

That last part, I agree with 110% Besides, I have a dollhouse to go build. You want to talk about some shitty engineering? Wait until this gets knocked together...

[kostmayer]

That last part, I agree with 110% Besides, I have a dollhouse to go build. You want to talk about some shitty engineering? Wait until this gets knocked together...

If the recipitent is anything like I was when I was a nipper, she'll probably just end up playing with the box it came it.

I spend a good 2 hours putting together one of those toy make up desks for my young niece last xmas (I'm sure it shouldn't have taken that long, but I should really finished that meccano helicopter my boss bought me last year as a joke - age 6 and above my eye). My niece then destroyed it in about 5 minutes just so she could sit on the floor and look at herself in the mirror. Little poser.

[Atekimogus]

It could be that the interior is subdivided by forcefields. But whether it is or not, I'd say that the enclosing of the interior is telling; I just don't see any other reason to enclose the structure like that.

First, protection. Not so much maybe from enemy fire since most docks don't seem to be frontier installations but maybe against radiation etc.
Second, preventing things from floating away. The biggest nuisance in space is probably that everything is always drifting away from you. Enclose the space and you ensure that not every lost toolbox becomes a safty risk for heavy space travel going on around the station etc.

The ability to work in a shirtsleeve environment would be a huge deal. Even in Trek space suits are big clumsy things. Being able to go without them would be a huge boon to repair crews.

Not sure if it is considered canon but in the animates series they had just a skin hugging "life support" field as spacesuit. Apart from that I always had the impression that they don't use space suits but work bees for construction/repairs. I don't think a human in a spacesuit is really first choice for shuffling around a few tons of plating or heavy wielding duties etc.

Like I said, seems to me that the simplest option is that those are the largest doors they could build and still keep them airtight.

That is a possibility, altough somewhat hard to believe considering the other technological marvels they do.... .