the Federation Galaxy

[BigJKU316]

The Dominion has a solid hold over the Gamma Quadrant and isn't far behind the UFP in terms of tech. It's quite likely that they will only continue to expand, leaving most of the GQ firmly in their control.

I'd say that the Dominion outclasses the Feds technologically. They've got general-issue humanoid-scale cloaks, their weapons went straight through Fed shields, and their shipbuilding abilities are clearly superior, even when limited to the Cardassian industrial base.



I dunno, I think the Dominion was impressive initially but it quickly became obvious that their biggest issue was in trying to be creative and innovative. I mean this is a society that acheived FTL travel what, 3 or 4 thousand years ago or more? Other than size and numbers it really is not all that impressive.

The Federation is like 10 times younger or more. Humanity, which makes up the backbone of the Fed's military has only been a FTL species for 300 years. Other than the Polaron beams, which was something solved in pretty short order, I am not sure what tech they had that was all that spectacular.

My impression is that being a command society and being somewhat isolated from major threats that they are simply stagnated as far as their tech goes. All the innovative weapons on their side seemed to come from their allies during the war. I think that is the big advantage the Federation would have in a meeting in the long time it would take for the Feds to expand across the AQ and the two powers to share a mutual border. They are simply developing at a much faster rate than the Dominion seems to be.

[Mikey]

I think that if the UFP began branching into the GQ and starting developing new and interesting ways to kill things, the Dominion would suddenly manifest some impressive powers of innovation themselves. They may have shown a greater degree of stagnation than the UFP to this point, but the Allies were completely outclassed by the Germans technologically in the early parts of WWII. Interestingly, by the end of the war the Allies had developed their own assault rifles, their own versions of the panzerfaust, etc.

[Captain Seafort]

Fun Fact - The Culture (the nation which constructed the GSVs) is the only universe which we've ever broken the "no vs debates" moratorium for.

I don't remember that - when was it?

I dunno, I think the Dominion was impressive initially but it quickly became obvious that their biggest issue was in trying to be creative and innovative. I mean this is a society that achieved FTL travel what, 3 or 4 thousand years ago or more? Other than size and numbers it really is not all that impressive.

Quantity has a quality all of it's own.

The Federation is like 10 times younger or more. Humanity, which makes up the backbone of the Fed's military has only been a FTL species for 300 years. Other than the Polaron beams, which was something solved in pretty short order, I am not sure what tech they had that was all that spectacular.

The Feds managed to solve the weapons problem only after they were gifted a JH ship they could dismantle and examine in detail. Even as late as the opening of the war, Weyoun was surprised at DS9's ability to resist Dominion weapons. As for the rest of it they had personal cloaks, far larger ships, greatly superior transporters (Eris beamed out of Ops with no JH ships anywhere nearby in "The Jem'Hadar"), and JH can apparently walk through forcefields (also in "The Jem'Hadar")

I'm not suggesting that the Dominion are great leaps and bounds ahead of the Feds (except in the field of genetic engineering, for obvious reasons), but they do have a definite edge.

On the subject of Fed/Dom rates of development, the Feds haven't developed all that fast themselves in the past century. Humanity may be a newcomer, but the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, Romulans, Kliingons, etc, have all been around for centuries. Therefore, given that the first few would likely have brought humanity up to speed ASAP during the Romulan War, and the Feds haven't massively outstripped the other two technologically, it's likely that the rate of technological development of the Federation is nowhere near as fast as is implied by humanity's age as a space-faring civilisation. This is supported by "Relics", which shows that the fundamentals of Fed technology haven't changed for centuries.

[Sionnach Glic]

I don't remember that - when was it?

Seems I misremembered slightly. It wasn't a dedicated Vs discussion, but the result of the TR-116ing of a thread which mentioned the Culture. It wasn't a debate as much as it was us all agreeing that the Culture could slap any other universe silly without even trying, with the exception of the Daleks.

The relevent thread.

[Captain Seafort]

the Allies were completely outclassed by the Germans technologically in the early parts of WWII.

No they weren't. The Char B1 was the best tank in the field by quite a margin in 1940, the 3.7" AA gun was superior to the 88, the 25-pdr was the best field gun of the war, and in the air the Bf109 was inferior to the Spitfire in everything but neg-g performance. The Germans kept winning because they used their kit better operationally, not because it was superior.

[Mikey]

German tanks had two-way radios - unheard of in allied armor. The guns I'll grant, but the Spitfire? Come on. The Spitfire was an amazing airplane for home defense, but you can't wage war with a craft that can't cross the Channel. Anyhow, I was referring to technological innovation, rather than quality of extant kit, per the prior discussion. Who developed the assault rifle? Who developed MP anti-armor reloadable rocket tubes? Who made the Tiger and Tiger II? Who made the first jet fighter (the fact of the high command's idiocy regarding its usage notwithstanding?)

[Captain Seafort]

German tanks had two-way radios - unheard of in allied armor.

Not unheard of by any means, but the Germans were the first to equip all their vehicles, rather than just command tanks.

the Spitfire? Come on. The Spitfire was an amazing airplane for home defense, but you can't wage war with a craft that can't cross the Channel.

It had short legs, but so did the 109, so it doesn't affect the relative quality of allied and German kit.

Anyhow, I was referring to technological innovation, rather than quality of extant kit, per the prior discussion. Who developed the assault rifle? Who developed MP anti-armor reloadable rocket tubes? Who made the Tiger and Tiger II? Who made the first jet fighter (the fact of the high command's idiocy regarding its usage notwithstanding?)

Fair enough, but none of those were around at the start of the war, which was what you referred to.

[Mikey]

I said "early," not "beginning." Though to be fair, I suppose that has a different meaning to a Brit than to a Yank.

[Lighthawk]

I think it's inevitable that the UFP will eventually encompass almost the entire galaxy.

Put simply, if there's one message of the Star Trek franchise it is "varied and diverse species and individuals working together with mutual respect for a common cause is a philosophy which can overcome any obstacle in the end". The whole point of the show is that the Federation's values and ways of doing things are the best. SO yeah, they'll absorb the Klingons, and the Romulans, and the Cardassians, and the Dominion. The only people they won't absorb are the primitive caveman types who aren't ready for it yet, then the Organian/Q types who are more powerful still.

Agreed. Eventually, barring total collapse, the federation will be a galactic power. It won't get each and every single world to join, or even be friendly with them, but they'll eventually grow to a point where it doesn't matter, they'll own enough of the galaxy to be able to be indifferent to people who don't like them.

[McAvoy]

I honestly do not see the Dominion being superior technologically. I see them having better technology in some areas and worse in other areas. I mean at first the Dominion did have a clear advantage against the UFP in weapons, but that went away within a season. By the time war erupted Dominion ships blew up as easily as a Federation or Klingon ship.

Perhaps by the time the UFP gets closer to Dominion border in the Beta Quadrant, the UFP could have a clear edge in technological superiority.

Anyway, I was always given that impression also.

[Mr. P.N. Guin]

I think it's inevitable that the UFP will eventually encompass almost the entire galaxy.

Put simply, if there's one message of the Star Trek franchise it is "varied and diverse species and individuals working together with mutual respect for a common cause is a philosophy which can overcome any obstacle in the end". The whole point of the show is that the Federation's values and ways of doing things are the best. SO yeah, they'll absorb the Klingons, and the Romulans, and the Cardassians, and the Dominion. The only people they won't absorb are the primitive caveman types who aren't ready for it yet, then the Organian/Q types who are more powerful still.

Agreed. Eventually, barring total collapse, the federation will be a galactic power. It won't get each and every single world to join, or even be friendly with them, but they'll eventually grow to a point where it doesn't matter, they'll own enough of the galaxy to be able to be indifferent to people who don't like them.

Yes this is what I was getting at, I never figured everyone would join outright. Some races like the Tholians, Breen, & the Sheliak spring to mind. Yes there are a number of very self sufficient empires out there like the Voth with their city ship, and of course the Dominion, but even in the future something could happen like with the Romulans where they might not have any choice but to become part of the Federation. The only beings I think would never ever want in would be the Borg and the advanced species who I'm sure don't care too much either way for the politicking of us mere mortals. I do like the idea of some vast unknown empire lurking about in the far reaches of the Alpha or Beta quadrant.

It just seems the natural progression. States become a nation, nations become one world, worlds become a federation and a united galaxy.

[McAvoy]

German tanks had two-way radios - unheard of in allied armor. The guns I'll grant, but the Spitfire? Come on. The Spitfire was an amazing airplane for home defense, but you can't wage war with a craft that can't cross the Channel. Anyhow, I was referring to technological innovation, rather than quality of extant kit, per the prior discussion. Who developed the assault rifle? Who developed MP anti-armor reloadable rocket tubes? Who made the Tiger and Tiger II? Who made the first jet fighter (the fact of the high command's idiocy regarding its usage notwithstanding?)

I would agree with you but to a point. At first the Germans have a technological edge. Eventually the Allies put better and better designs especially with the US joining. The P51 comes to mind as an example or the B29. Japanese i wouldn't really count due to their Zero is basically standard technology for the time bt designed under a different design philosophy.

Some even think that German armor is the best in the war but was found to be not as effective as british armor. It is usually comparable to US armor.

[Coalition]

I dunno, I think the Dominion was impressive initially but it quickly became obvious that their biggest issue was in trying to be creative and innovative. I mean this is a society that acheived FTL travel what, 3 or 4 thousand years ago or more? Other than size and numbers it really is not all that impressive.

The Federation is like 10 times younger or more. Humanity, which makes up the backbone of the Fed's military has only been a FTL species for 300 years. Other than the Polaron beams, which was something solved in pretty short order, I am not sure what tech they had that was all that spectacular.

My impression is that being a command society and being somewhat isolated from major threats that they are simply stagnated as far as their tech goes. All the innovative weapons on their side seemed to come from their allies during the war. I think that is the big advantage the Federation would have in a meeting in the long time it would take for the Feds to expand across the AQ and the two powers to share a mutual border. They are simply developing at a much faster rate than the Dominion seems to be.

Well, the Federation started to stagnate as well. Remember "Relics", where Geordi mentioned that most of the systems hadn't changed in 75 years? Heck, Geordi was using the same specifications that Scotty wrote.

Basically the Federation caught up to the other powers, and stopped there. They met the Dominion (who were older) and got up to their level. They have been trying to advance further, by contacting (and copying) older powers (such as the Borg).

Now the nice part about Earth and the Federation is that we can immediately apply new ideas and countermeasures for things that we encounter. The shields were believed to be good enough, until they ran across the Dominion's shield-ignring beam. Within a few months they developed a counter.

[colmquinn]

Some even think that German armor is the best in the war but was found to be not as effective as british armor. It is usually comparable to US armor.

Not getting to the dominion war stuff are you sertiously saying that the chuchill/ sherman was a better tank than the panther ? The allies had to send 4 shernans/ chuchills againsg each panther never mind the tiger to confirm the kill. They had to send the firefly with its 17 pounder gun to make sure the job was done.
(I haven't an online source for this but my big book of tanks "tanks of the worlds" published by Hermers Houseisbn-13 978-1-84477-744-0)

Look up Michael Wittman he wiped out an allied coloum of tanks with his battle group

In less than 15 minutes, 13-14 tanks, two anti-tank guns and 13-15 transport vehicles had been destroyed by the Heavy SS-Panzer Battalion 101, the vast majority being attributable to Wittmann. Wittmann would however play no further role in the Battle of Villers-Bocage. For his actions during the battle Wittmann was promoted to SS-Hauptsturmführer (Captain) and awarded Swords to his Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross

[Deepcrush]

I've got to agree. The whole point of saying British Armor matched the Germans is just a joke. The only country who matched the Germans in the Medium Tank were the Russians with the T34.