Security Overhaul

[Lighthawk]

Starship security can't stop a seven-year-old wandering into engineering or a teenager nicking a shuttle. A swipe-and-pin system would.

They got a bit better as time went on. Yeah, the TNG security was useless. And I agree, some actual door locks and ID systems would be a major improvement.

The thread is about shipboard security, not infantry.

Really? Gee, and here I thought I knew what I was making this thread about now. Guess you showed me.

Sure, goldshirts tend to fill both roles, but they shouldn't - if you need light infantry regularly, carry light infantry, don't try and make shipboard security do a completely different job.

The thing is, when have we ever seen an indication that SF has any sort of infantry? Even during the Dom war, whenever we saw a ground battle, who was fighting it? Certainly not infantry, they sent in people right off their ships to do the ground work.

Like it or not, security is the closet SF has to ground troops. They are woefully under trained and under equiped for the job though. Thus unless SF plans on developing a couple divisions of dedicated infantry, then it would be in their best interest to start training and equiping their security forces to fill that role when it comes up. Certainly would be a lot better then sending in starship officers.

Anything that's dependant on sound can be misunderstood, or jammed - the latter's probably more likely than the former given the extra development.

Anything that's jamming the device from picking up the voice commands is going to make the comm worthless anyway, as even if it was on, it wouldn't be picking up your words anyway. I think a voice command is no less vulnerable or prone to failure then slapping at your chest, and it would be useable in situations where the standard activation method wouldn't be, such as having your hands full, or if your too injured to move your arms.

Why? A headset would go across the entire head, with the option for a chinstrap.

Unless it's part of a helmet, such a set up only makes itself a good target. Even with a chin strap, it's be easy to twist such a headset into an uncomfortable and potentially distracting position, or smack the damn thing and drive the earpiece painfully into the ear.

An earpiece would have to be entirely internal if it weren't to risk being knocked out, in which case it would be smaller than the badges, and therefore probably too small to contain a communicator.

Of course it would be smaller, but on what basis are you suggesting that the standard comm badge is the smallest possible sized object a working communicator could be placed in? The standard comm badge is powerful enough to reach ship's in orbit, I'm sure they could cut it down a bit, maybe lose a bit of range, but I see no reason a smaller model couldn't be built. And if more range is needed, then make it like a Blue Tooth, ear piece wirelessly connected to a comm device worn on the belt.

You'd also need a throat mite anyway, so you might as well attach everything to avoid losing it, and make it easier to find among your kit.

You don't know that you would need a throat mike. It certainly doesn't seem unlikely to me that an earpiece with 24th century tech could pick up your words by itself.

Distracting full-stop - Training would only reduce the problem, not eliminate it.

What makes you say that?

Something like that that would be OK for a vehicle commander (for example), but not a security guard or infantryman.

Again, why not?

The most that should be integrated like that should be sights - and they should be as unobtrusive as possible (superimposing a red dot on the guard's vision for example).

Broken record here but, why why why?

Hand-held or wrist-mounted screens.

Workable, but I think they have better options.

Anything that injects drugs should be initiated by a human, not a machine. If you're not happy with additional medial personnel, then make it something that all security personnel can be training to use and the guard or his buddy can operate it.

I'm curious, what have you got against a machine admistering simple meds? And even beyond that, I would have security trained in first aid at least, and maybe a bit more anyway, even with these devices.

[Captain Seafort]

It just depends on what you need them for. Against regular humanoids, yeah your average HE handbomb is sufficant. Against some of the super beings that SF occassionally runs into though, you'd need something with a lot more kick. Blowing a hole between two decks might not make the engineering team happy, but if it's between that and losing the entire ship...I'd say have things like photon grenades on hand, but locked down so that they could only be accessed by permission of the security chief/XO/Captain.

Arming starship security with HE grenades is about as good an idea as giving air marshals assault rifles - chuck one in the wrong place and you could wipe out half a deck. The most they should be equipped with is flashbangs, which have the extra advantage that they can be chucked into the middle of a hostage situation.

[Lighthawk]

Arming starship security with HE grenades is about as good an idea as giving air marshals assault rifles - chuck one in the wrong place and you could wipe out half a deck. The most they should be equipped with is flashbangs, which have the extra advantage that they can be chucked into the middle of a hostage situation.

I'm not saying hand the things out like candy and advise security to use them at every oppertinuty, but there are times when such a weapon could be useful, off and on the ship. And your anology is flawed simpley by the size difference in the respective craft.

Again, it comes down to training. No, I would in absolutely no way advice giving any kind of explosive to the current version of SF security, the dumbasses would likely chuck them next to the warp core. But there are PLENTY of locations in a SF ship that a hand grenade could be set off without causing ship threatening damage. Proper training in the use of the explosives and knowledge of when and where they could be used would be key, and anyone lacking either would not be allowed to handle them.

And again, I'm not suggesting this be standard armament for day to day patrol, but something handed out in a full on battle situation.

[Deepcrush]

I have to agree with Seafort. There really isn't anything useful a frag could do aboard your ship that a Flashbang couldn't do without the risk to the ship itself.

[Lighthawk]

I have to agree with Seafort. There really isn't anything useful a frag could do aboard your ship that a Flashbang couldn't do without the risk to the ship itself.

What about fighting the Borg? Or what if you're boarded by a species that doesn't see in the "visible spectrum"? What about those Hunter/killer probes that trapped Riker in a forcefield, the one's that wiped out their creators (forget the episode name). There are threats in the Trek universe that could shrug off or ignore a flashbang, things you'd want to put down as fast as you could rather than just stun or disorient. I'm not saying flashbangs wouldn't have their place, just like the stun setting, they'd be the primary choice. But just as the phaser's kill settings have their uses (thus why they have them), a proper explosive weapon has it's uses.

[Captain Seafort]

Really? Gee, and here I thought I knew what I was making this thread about now. Guess you showed me.

Alright, we all know that Trek security is a joke. The goldshirts, apart from the security chiefs, are about as competant as mall rent-a-cops, and are poorly under-equiped for their duties.

So here comes the hypothetical: You are in charge of Starfleet security now. We're going to focus this thread on the typical security officer. What changes do you make in order to turn these meat shields who couldn't be trusted to watch over a small child into proper ship guardians and warriors?

If you want to talk about giving Starfleet a proper army, fair enough. Your own OP, however, specifically talks about shipboard security.

The thing is, when have we ever seen an indication that SF has any sort of infantry? Even during the Dom war, whenever we saw a ground battle, who was fighting it? Certainly not infantry, they sent in people right off their ships to do the ground work.

Like it or not, security is the closet SF has to ground troops. They are woefully under trained and under equiped for the job though. Thus unless SF plans on developing a couple divisions of dedicated infantry, then it would be in their best interest to start training and equiping their security forces to fill that role when it comes up. Certainly would be a lot better then sending in starship officers.

This is true, however your OP ask what I'd do if I were in charge of Starfleet security - in which case the very first step should be separating out security duties from infantry.

Anything that's jamming the device from picking up the voice commands is going to make the comm worthless anyway, as even if it was on, it wouldn't be picking up your words anyway. I think a voice command is no less vulnerable or prone to failure then slapping at your chest, and it would be useable in situations where the standard activation method wouldn't be, such as having your hands full, or if your too injured to move your arms.

I'm mainly talking about noise here, and in the worse case scenario of something akin to the Iranian Embassy, with shouting, firing and flashbangs, anything that relied on sound would be useless, or at the very best unreliable in the extreme.

Being no worse than the existing badge setup is not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Unless it's part of a helmet, such a set up only makes itself a good target.

How? I think you're seriously overestimating the size of the headset I'm talking about. Not the best image, but I hope it's enough for you to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

Even with a chin strap, it's be easy to twist such a headset into an uncomfortable and potentially distracting position, or smack the damn thing and drive the earpiece painfully into the ear.

Not if it's secured properly.

Of course it would be smaller, but on what basis are you suggesting that the standard comm badge is the smallest possible sized object a working communicator could be placed in? The standard comm badge is powerful enough to reach ship's in orbit, I'm sure they could cut it down a bit, maybe lose a bit of range, but I see no reason a smaller model couldn't be built. And if more range is needed, then make it like a Blue Tooth, ear piece wirelessly connected to a comm device worn on the belt.

What evidence do you have that it can be miniaturised further? If they could be, why aren't smaller devices standard issue, with away team personnel being issued the full-sized model?

You don't know that you would need a throat mike. It certainly doesn't seem unlikely to me that an earpiece with 24th century tech could pick up your words by itself.

This goes back to the amount of noise a worse-case scenario would produce.

What makes you say that?

Because the human mind can only process so much data at once - this is why aircraft HUDs are designed to only give a pilot the information he needs, rather than everything possible. Too much data will overload an individual's ability to deal with it, especially when he's trying to do a hundred other things at once (shepherd frightened civilians out of the way, watch out for threats, watch where his buddies are, ears open for what might be round the next corner, etc).

I'm curious, what have you got against a machine admistering simple meds? And even beyond that, I would have security trained in first aid at least, and maybe a bit more anyway, even with these devices.

Because the last thing anyone needs is to be unexpectedly pumped full of drugs in the middle of a firefight. Given identical injuries, one person might be incapacitated, while another is simply pissed off - look at the number of times soldiers have kept going despite having several bullets in them.

[Mark]

But for ship board use, you need to be able to control the weapon better. What happens if you lob a grenade and it some shrapnel damages an EPS grid? Not just blowing a hole in the hull, but screwing up key systems that are behind the deck walls and in the flooring/ceiling.

[Aaron]

There are grenades other then frag, a simple tear gas grenade would have solved many of the intruder incidents.

[Deepcrush]

I have to agree with Seafort. There really isn't anything useful a frag could do aboard your ship that a Flashbang couldn't do without the risk to the ship itself.

What about fighting the Borg? Or what if you're boarded by a species that doesn't see in the "visible spectrum"? What about those Hunter/killer probes that trapped Riker in a forcefield, the one's that wiped out their creators (forget the episode name). There are threats in the Trek universe that could shrug off or ignore a flashbang, things you'd want to put down as fast as you could rather than just stun or disorient. I'm not saying flashbangs wouldn't have their place, just like the stun setting, they'd be the primary choice. But just as the phaser's kill settings have their uses (thus why they have them), a proper explosive weapon has it's uses.

Again... this is about using them aboard ship, and if they have force fields it won't make a difference if it's frag or flash.

[Tyyr]

If you want to talk about giving Starfleet a proper army, fair enough. Your own OP, however, specifically talks about shipboard security.

This is true, however your OP ask what I'd do if I were in charge of Starfleet security - in which case the very first step should be separating out security duties from infantry.

It's a valid point. Split out the cop vs. infantry duties.

I'm mainly talking about noise here, and in the worse case scenario of something akin to the Iranian Embassy, with shouting, firing and flashbangs, anything that relied on sound would be useless, or at the very best unreliable in the extreme.

Based off current technology I'd agree. However picking out one voice among a cacophony wouldn't seem to be that difficult for Starfleet tech. I'd probably put it down as indeterminate either way.

What evidence do you have that it can be miniaturised further? If they could be, why aren't smaller devices standard issue, with away team personnel being issued the full-sized model?

Could be a simple matter of scale. Why bother with two different communicators in this case? Just mass produce one version and give it to everyone. As for proof it can be miniaturized, I can swear we've seen almost exactly what LH describes used by Riker on one of those undercover missions he went on. The one where he's captured and his prosthetics peeled off. Or in Who Watches the Watchers. Its been a while but I'd swear I remember them using hearing aid sized communicators.

Because the human mind can only process so much data at once - this is why aircraft HUDs are designed to only give a pilot the information he needs, rather than everything possible. Too much data will overload an individual's ability to deal with it, especially when he's trying to do a hundred other things at once (shepherd frightened civilians out of the way, watch out for threats, watch where his buddies are, ears open for what might be round the next corner, etc).

What LH originally proposed wasn't a permanent fixed display

b) Tricorder readings will be able to be displayed in the visor/contact HUD, and will respond to verbal commands. That way security officers can have both hands on their weapon at all times.
c) Security officers visor/contacts will also be able to recieve data feeds from the ship's sensors.

Just that the data can be displayed in some sort of HUD but that it also can be hidden when not needed. Don't underestimate the amount of information conveyed in a HUD either. Even today there's a lot of information being given to the pilot through one.

[Aaron]

Could be a simple matter of scale. Why bother with two different communicators in this case? Just mass produce one version and give it to everyone. As for proof it can be miniaturized, I can swear we've seen almost exactly what LH describes used by Riker on one of those undercover missions he went on. The one where he's captured and his prosthetics peeled off. Or in Who Watches the Watchers. Its been a while but I'd swear I remember them using hearing aid sized communicators.

Are you thinking of that beacon he had on the Klingon ship? They had either implanted or hidden comms in the episode with the proto-vulcans, Troi could hear Data clearly but had to disguise her answers.

[Mikey]

A HUD is certainly workable as long - as Seafort mentions - it is strictly limited to a relatively small amount of vital data. Having had a car with one, I can tell you an HUD is both a tremendous gadget - as well as a HUGE potential liability. Mine was limited to a directional signal indicator, speedo, and radio data, and if it were any more it would have been tremendously distracting. Perhaps the display controls could be linked to a headset comm with voice commands...

As to grenades - like I said, even a frag would be acceptable as long as it was limited in blast radius. I don't see metal shrapnel doing a lot of damage to starship structures. What we can't have is security going around tossing those photon grenades that Kirk used in TOS: "Arena."

[Tyyr]

As to grenades - like I said, even a frag would be acceptable as long as it was limited in blast radius. I don't see metal shrapnel doing a lot of damage to starship structures. What we can't have is security going around tossing those photon grenades that Kirk used in TOS: "Arena."

That's largely my thoughts. Lobbing a frag grenade into a science lab or crew cabin isn't likely to jeopardize the ship. The room's fucked but I don't see it being an issue with the ship's integrity. You'd obviously not be tossing them around in main engineering, and that's what training is for. I just keep coming back to the fact that trek ship's have structural integrity fields and regularly take impacts that would vaporize a city. A frag grenade sized to kill humanoids and not much else I just have trouble seeing causing wide spread catastrophic damage.

[Mikey]

Exactly what I meant when I said that a typical RL pineapple would be fine. Although, one would think that by the late 24th century, the UFP would have some sort of better area-effect man-portable weapon to incapacitate soft targets...

[Tyyr]

Like those often talked about but never actually used stun grenades Enterprise always talked about?