Security Overhaul

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Re: Security Overhaul

Post by Mikey »

Not a bad idea, as long as it remains strictly supplemental. Otherwise you have the problems of nascent possible sapience a la the Doctor, as well as an inability to be proactive and deal with novel situations.
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Re: Security Overhaul

Post by Mark »

I doubt it could or would ever supplement a real life security force, but it sure as hell would cut down on casualties.

But if security officers themselves could somehow remotely control their holographic counterparts, then that would add an entirely new dimension, wouldn't it?
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Re: Security Overhaul

Post by Sonic Glitch »

Mark wrote:I doubt it could or would ever supplement a real life security force, but it sure as hell would cut down on casualties.

But if security officers themselves could somehow remotely control their holographic counterparts, then that would add an entirely new dimension, wouldn't it?
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Re: Security Overhaul

Post by Lighthawk »

Captain Seafort wrote:Overall I think you're looking too much at the high-level stuff, dealing with armed boarding teams rather than day-to-day security. That can be dealt with simply by more secure programming (i.e. don't run alien programming on the main computer), disabling their wi-fi, and installing some basic security around classified areas like the bridge and engineering - doors with swipe card machines, CCTV, some bloke outside the door checking ID (which should be visible at all times), etc.
The thing is, they seem to be able to handle day-to-day security, because most of the time it's no more work then them just being there. They're mall security...in space. The problems all arise when something more threatening then your average teenager shows up, at which point the goldshirts all get their asses handed to them. The only somewhat competant display I can recall seeing out of any of them was one gunning down a klingon after he and his buddy had busted out of their quarters. Other than that, we rarely ever see them do anything but stand outside of doors.
Also a few grenades would be nice, frag, smoke, gas, EMC...
Hang on a moment, this is starship security we're talking about, not ground combat. Flashbangs and smoke (possibly with anaesthetic gas) grenades would be useful, but frag and EMP risk damaging the ship.
Considering that starships don't seem to carry any sort of ground troops, I see no reason security should not have some heavier weapon options, because they should be getting brought along on away missions. Am I the only one who found it absurd that senior officers often went down on risky or even out right dangerous away missions with no security other than Worf? Why the hell was Riker, Data, and Geordi constantly the front line in the vast majority of firefights that broke out? I mean come on, Kirk, as balls to the wall as he was, took security along. Granted it usually turned out badly for the redshirts, but at least he bothered to remember he had a security force. Picard seems to have no idea why he has a bunch of guys in gold with phasers.
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Agreed, although I think ease of movement and comfortable wear should be prioritised over survivability if there has to be a choice between the two.
I'd be inclinded to disagree. Still, for every day security, I'd be willing to leave it up to the individual. Like police officers who choose to wear their vests on a regular basis or not.
I think headsets with a PTT would be a better bet - small earpieces would be more delicate and easier to loose, and voice activation is slow and is potentially misunderstood, especially in a noisy and confused environment.
Modern voice activation is slow and potentially misunderstood. Give it a few hundred years. And I can't see a small device that fits snuggly in the ear being any less easy to loose that a headset, indeed I'd say it'd be much less likely to get knocked loose in a scuffle.
a) Bio sensors: All on duty security personal will have their vitals under constant monituring. If the sensors detect a life threatening reading, they will trigger an immediate and automatic site to site transport to sick bay. And sound a general alert if it has not already been done.
Useful, although I think the response should be a local alert and despatching a security team with a medic, not transport and a shipwide alert.
I'm not talking about this kicking in if the guy bumps his head, I mean something serious happens, like his heart flat lining or his blood pressure drops considerably due to a massive injury. I'm talking about the kind of thing that can kill in seconds, when there is no time to wait for a medic to come running. Boom, right to sickbay! And anytime a security officer takes that kind of injury, it's not likely caused by him tripping on the carpet, that's the result of somethign serious. I think it would warrent a general alert.
b) Tricorder readings will be able to be displayed in the visor/contact HUD, and will respond to verbal commands. That way security officers can have both hands on their weapon at all times.
Again, there are problems with voice-control in confused environments, and having a HUD floating around in front of your face could be dangerously distracting.
Distracting if you're not trained with the equipment. It'd be a standard part of the training.
c) Security officers visor/contacts will also be able to recieve data feeds from the ship's sensors.
I agree with the sensor feed, but not integrating them into visors.
So how do they recieve the info?
d) Auto-meds: If site to site transport is unaviable, disabled, or if the injury is just not great enough to warrent it but still enough to severly degrade the security personal's performance, he can be adminstered various painkilling and stabalizing medicines by the means of a tricorder sized device intergrated into his armor, which will be tied into the bio senors.
No thanks - you'd be better off adding medical personnel to security teams, or even better having two man medical teams within a few minutes of all points on the ship (not difficult with turbolifts).
You're talking about adding significantly to the medical personal on board. I think my system would be much less resorce intensive. And again, the individual wouldn't have to wait around bleeding for minutes before receiveing any help. I'm not talking about anything extreme here, just a device able to administer some basic first aid concotions to ease suffering and help keep the guy stable.
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Re: Security Overhaul

Post by Lighthawk »

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Increase the effectiveness and friggin' use of force fields, gas, transporters, jamming fields and the like.
Aye, they had a lot of really good toys they never seemed to recall they had.
thelordharry wrote:Are we talking TNG:NEM era here?

I wonder if there was a 24th century MACO organisation or if SF security became a 'one size fits all' outfit?
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Mark wrote:In a day and age of holograms with holo emitters all over the ship, I'd go for a supplemental force of holo-security. Let's look at the benefits.

Immune to most weapons. You'd have to target the emitters which could be protected by a high powered forcefield.

Instant response time. They are where you need them instantly. Plus they could go places other huminoids may not be able to enter.

They can be programmed with increased speed and strength for hand to hand fighting, as well as being able to alter their form (to a certain degree) to adapt to a combat situation.

Morale wouldn't be a problem. They'd fight and hold until the emitters were destroyed, with no need to flee or retreat.
Good idea, though Tyyr beat you to it. The only problem with it is the resource cost of putting holo-emitters all over the ship. Oh and the idea of giving the computer that kind of power. And it might be a big power drain, which might not be availible if there is a boarding action in the middle of a ship to ship battle.

Not that I'm against it, just saying.
Mark wrote:I doubt it could or would ever supplement a real life security force, but it sure as hell would cut down on casualties.

But if security officers themselves could somehow remotely control their holographic counterparts, then that would add an entirely new dimension, wouldn't it?
Now that would be interesting. "Red alert, all security to the holodecks!"
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Re: Security Overhaul

Post by thelordharry »

Hey, here's a bizzarre thought I had after reading the holo-security ideas. How about holo-emitters on each deck (yeah, wholly impractical, I know but go with me on this) that, when an enemy boarding party is detected, a command is given to effectively create a false ship layout that leads the party down a dark alley and then the holo-security officers jump them and beat them to a pulp? :)
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Re: Security Overhaul

Post by thelordharry »

Lighthawk wrote:Why the hell was....Data...constantly the front line in the vast majority of firefights that broke out?
In case the Borg were there? :)
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Re: Security Overhaul

Post by Mikey »

As to the use of grenades, weapons heavier than a type-II, etc.: since the security department does serve as soldiery on occassion (such as it is,) such equipment should be available. Such equipment should not be commonplace in the performance of actual security functions. It sends the wrong message, it greatly increases the chances of collateral damage, and practically in a corridor-to-room-to-corridor fight it increases reaction time. There's a reason that cops with shotguns keep them in the cruiser.
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Re: Security Overhaul

Post by Tyyr »

I don't think LH is advocating security patrolling the ship while kitted out like marines, just that the heavier stuff is available when needed.

Something about grenades, I'm not entirely sold they'd be a structural danger to the ship. Sure the soft stuff in the compartment would be fucked but with the structural integrity field I'm not convinced you'd be knocking down walls.
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Re: Security Overhaul

Post by Lighthawk »

Tyyr wrote:I don't think LH is advocating security patrolling the ship while kitted out like marines, just that the heavier stuff is available when needed.
Aye, that is what I was suggesting. Such things are for when some hostile entity/force has managed te entreched itself in the ship, or if they have to go down to an area where open and active hostility is expected.
Something about grenades, I'm not entirely sold they'd be a structural danger to the ship. Sure the soft stuff in the compartment would be f***ed but with the structural integrity field I'm not convinced you'd be knocking down walls.
I would tend to agree. As long as you don't go chucking them around in engineering, I don't think you could do any significant damage to the ship as a whole.
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Re: Security Overhaul

Post by Mikey »

Depends on what we're talking about. A pineapple would probably be OK; but if you're talking about the "photon grenades" that Jim Kirk was launching in TOS: "Arena," then I think you'd have a real danger to structures.
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Re: Security Overhaul

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Lighthawk wrote:The thing is, they seem to be able to handle day-to-day security, because most of the time it's no more work then them just being there. They're mall security...in space. The problems all arise when something more threatening then your average teenager shows up, at which point the goldshirts all get their asses handed to them.
Starship security can't stop a seven-year-old wandering into engineering or a teenager nicking a shuttle. A swipe-and-pin system would.
Considering that starships don't seem to carry any sort of ground troops, I see no reason security should not have some heavier weapon options, because they should be getting brought along on away missions. Am I the only one who found it absurd that senior officers often went down on risky or even out right dangerous away missions with no security other than Worf? Why the hell was Riker, Data, and Geordi constantly the front line in the vast majority of firefights that broke out? I mean come on, Kirk, as balls to the wall as he was, took security along. Granted it usually turned out badly for the redshirts, but at least he bothered to remember he had a security force. Picard seems to have no idea why he has a bunch of guys in gold with phasers.
The thread is about shipboard security, not infantry. Sure, goldshirts tend to fill both roles, but they shouldn't - if you need light infantry regularly, carry light infantry, don't try and make shipboard security do a completely different job.
I'd be inclinded to disagree. Still, for every day security, I'd be willing to leave it up to the individual. Like police officers who choose to wear their vests on a regular basis or not.
Fair enough.
Modern voice activation is slow and potentially misunderstood. Give it a few hundred years.
Anything that's dependant on sound can be misunderstood, or jammed - the latter's probably more likely than the former given the extra development.
And I can't see a small device that fits snuggly in the ear being any less easy to loose that a headset, indeed I'd say it'd be much less likely to get knocked loose in a scuffle.
Why? A headset would go across the entire head, with the option for a chinstrap. An earpiece would have to be entirely internal if it weren't to risk being knocked out, in which case it would be smaller than the badges, and therefore probably too small to contain a communicator. You'd also need a throat mite anyway, so you might as well attach everything to avoid losing it, and make it easier to find among your kit.
I'm not talking about this kicking in if the guy bumps his head, I mean something serious happens, like his heart flat lining or his blood pressure drops considerably due to a massive injury. I'm talking about the kind of thing that can kill in seconds, when there is no time to wait for a medic to come running. Boom, right to sickbay! And anytime a security officer takes that kind of injury, it's not likely caused by him tripping on the carpet, that's the result of somethign serious. I think it would warrent a general alert.
Fair enough.
Distracting if you're not trained with the equipment. It'd be a standard part of the training.
Distracting full-stop - Training would only reduce the problem, not eliminate it. Something like that that would be OK for a vehicle commander (for example), but not a security guard or infantryman. The most that should be integrated like that should be sights - and they should be as unobtrusive as possible (superimposing a red dot on the guard's vision for example).
So how do they recieve the info?
Hand-held or wrist-mounted screens.
You're talking about adding significantly to the medical personal on board. I think my system would be much less resorce intensive. And again, the individual wouldn't have to wait around bleeding for minutes before receiveing any help. I'm not talking about anything extreme here, just a device able to administer some basic first aid concotions to ease suffering and help keep the guy stable.
Anything that injects drugs should be initiated by a human, not a machine. If you're not happy with additional medial personnel, then make it something that all security personnel can be training to use and the guard or his buddy can operate it.
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Re: Security Overhaul

Post by RK_Striker_JK_5 »

Mikey wrote:Not a bad idea, as long as it remains strictly supplemental. Otherwise you have the problems of nascent possible sapience a la the Doctor, as well as an inability to be proactive and deal with novel situations.
Considering how often that happens... might wanna just forget about that. Good idea, though. Just with ST computers, a bit problematic.
thelordharry wrote:Hey, here's a bizzarre thought I had after reading the holo-security ideas. How about holo-emitters on each deck (yeah, wholly impractical, I know but go with me on this) that, when an enemy boarding party is detected, a command is given to effectively create a false ship layout that leads the party down a dark alley and then the holo-security officers jump them and beat them to a pulp? :)
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Re: Security Overhaul

Post by Lighthawk »

Mikey wrote:Depends on what we're talking about. A pineapple would probably be OK; but if you're talking about the "photon grenades" that Jim Kirk was launching in TOS: "Arena," then I think you'd have a real danger to structures.
It just depends on what you need them for. Against regular humanoids, yeah your average HE handbomb is sufficant. Against some of the super beings that SF occassionally runs into though, you'd need something with a lot more kick. Blowing a hole between two decks might not make the engineering team happy, but if it's between that and losing the entire ship...I'd say have things like photon grenades on hand, but locked down so that they could only be accessed by permission of the security chief/XO/Captain.
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Re: Security Overhaul

Post by Aaron »

Just build Data/Lore bodies and shove a handicapped brain in there. Problem solved, disposable combat droids, no need to rely on the ships power, etc.
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