Music in the 24th Century

[Graham Kennedy]

FWIW, the beastie boys song was on the track list that Kirk hits when the song starts, so it is actually the music he was playing. It was, however, listed on the display under "Oldies".

[Tyyr]

The song was what, 260 years old at that point? Yeah I think that qualifies.

[Sionnach Glic]

Classical music of a new sort.

Well, lessons will be free.

Why? Why are people suddenly going to take time out of their day to impart their knowledge upon you for nothing?

Instruments will be free (or very cheap).

Says who? Even if you can replicate them, replicators don't run on happy thoughts. There's a cost in running them, probably a rather high one, so anything replicated would cost something.

The complete knowledge of music will be freely available.

True. As it is today.

Holodecks will be free

If you're in Starfleet, sure. If you're a civillian, then we don't know. It's quite possible that civilians have to pay to use them, since operating them would cost money.

Anyways, this takes advantage of the somewhat silly utopian communist economy that makes so much of Trek possible IU.

Even in a communist utopia, things have a cost.

What I'm saying is, what's stopping a modern day guy from going to learn guitar? About $100 if he wants to do it on his own, and much more if he actually wants someone to teach him. So, take away the money element, and add in more ways to learn music, and I think you'd have many more hobbyist musicians.

Except the money element is not taken away. Let's just look at what it takes to replicate a violin:
First, you need to build the replicator. This requires them to be manufactured somewhere, which requires a factory of some sort and people running it. Already, this costs money. Then you need people to fit the replicator into your house, and hook it up to all the necessary outlets. Again, cost. You need stock for it. That stock is mined, and then processed before probably being shipped to distrubution centres, where they are likely spread out amongst the city's replicators. Again, lots of cost. Then you need the replicator powered. This requires a power plant to be constructed, for people to maintain it, and people to oversee it. It requires channels for the energy to be sent to your home, and these lines need to be maintained constantly.
Then you can say "Computer, one violin".

As you can see, simply living in a communist state does not mean things are completely free. And that's only getting the violin. Let's not even start on taking holodeck lessons.

And if music is taught at a young age, the student learns much more quickly and easily. Maybe they'd get bored of it in their young years, but who knows? Maybe they'll retain enough knowledge to take it up again when they grow up.

Music is already thought at a young age. Over here, at least. Primary schools (5-12 year olds) teach music classes as standard (I believe they learn to play the flute), and secondary schools (13-18 years) have optional music classes you can take. Despite that, there's no outbreak of great musicians.

I'm not saying everyone's going to be a musician or that all musicians will be great. I am definitely saying that it will be easier to learn music, and I think the shift away from commercialism will change the way people think about music from this strange thing that only famous people do in some high tech studio to a more interactive, enriching activity. Therefore, I think more people would play music, and it would be done largely for enjoyment. And I think that would be awesome.

Oh, I agree learning it would certainly be easier than today. Just not as easy as you seem to be suggesting.
And yeah, it'd be great if the comercialism around it was killed off.

[Monroe]

FWIW, the beastie boys song was on the track list that Kirk hits when the song starts, so it is actually the music he was playing. It was, however, listed on the display under "Oldies".

Yeah I think oldies is too general at that point
But it seems rock might survive. And then there's all those alien influences. Doesn't Vulcan have some really odd music?

[Bryan Moore]

I could just imagine that you'd have a lot of avant garde stuff with people blending instruments from across the galaxy. Besides, you haven't heard Stairway to Heaven until you've heard it on Dorenian Beshniquel and Omni Box =P

[Tsukiyumi]

...you haven't heard Stairway to Heaven until you've heard it on Dorenian Beshniquel and Omni Box =P

[Bryan Moore]

And even in the 24th century, the Beatles are still tragically overrated.

[Grundig]

Why? Why are people suddenly going to take time out of their day to impart their knowledge upon you for nothing?

Same reason they're going to risk their lives in Starfleet for free. Trek does send a mixed message about money, but my take is that there is no money in the federation. I'm sure some people will teach for free, but I'm talking about interactive computers, holodecks, and that sort of thing. If there's no money, then lessons would be free. Or, maybe a kid could mow Mrs. Dandypants' lawn in exchange for lessons. I don't know if I can give a satisfying answer to this one because Trek is so vague about economics.

Says who? Even if you can replicate them, replicators don't run on happy thoughts. There's a cost in running them, probably a rather high one, so anything replicated would cost something.

Again, I tend to disagree on the money issue. I think energy has become cheap to produce, and harvesting the raw materials for replication is probably a highly automated process. We're getting pretty far off topic and beyond canon, but I understand how this applies to what I said. The bottom line is, once the infrastructure is in place, the replication process seems to be very efficient and highly self-sufficient (though not completely so, of course). I think, also, the fact that there are no poor or hungry people in the UFP is evidence of this.

True. As it is today.

Actually that's not true.
1)We have to pay for most of the valuable stuff. The internet can provide lots of access, sure, but that's mostly illegal, and not always easily navigated. And besides, fewer people on Earth have access to the internet than you might think.
2)The knowledge available for free today is going to be vastly inferior to what's available 300 years from now.

If you're in Starfleet, sure. If you're a civilian, then we don't know. It's quite possible that civilians have to pay to use them, since operating them would cost money.

You're right, we don't know much about civilian life. I admit it is possible that civilians have to pay money, but like I said, my personal take is that there isn't money. Not that I'm a communist, nor do I believe this is feasible. I just think that's one of the basic principles behind GR's vision, and since it's fiction, I'm happy to suspend my disbelief. To do otherwise requires ignoring many established bits of canon, and that's kind of distracting, and not really fun.

Even in a communist utopia, things have a cost.

Ok, so let's say there is a cost. Obviously, there's some sort of giant government in place that oversees all this communism, and maybe it's actually found a way to work. So perhaps the cost of having music lessons and replicating an instrument is a state-funded endeavor. Heck, maybe UFP citizens have inalienable replicator rights!

Except the money element is not taken away. Let's just look at what it takes to replicate a violin:
First, you need to build the replicator. This requires them to be manufactured somewhere, which requires a factory of some sort and people running it. Already, this costs money. Then you need people to fit the replicator into your house, and hook it up to all the necessary outlets. Again, cost. You need stock for it. That stock is mined, and then processed before probably being shipped to distrubution centres, where they are likely spread out amongst the city's replicators. Again, lots of cost. Then you need the replicator powered. This requires a power plant to be constructed, for people to maintain it, and people to oversee it. It requires channels for the energy to be sent to your home, and these lines need to be maintained constantly.
Then you can say "Computer, one violin".

As you can see, simply living in a communist state does not mean things are completely free. And that's only getting the violin. Let's not even start on taking holodeck lessons.

I appreciate that you're thinking so critically about this. You're absolutely right in proving the implausibility of a 'completely free' utopia, regarding replicators, holodecks - all that stuff. I concede that it's implausible. But, you know, let's just pretend that some awesome dude or dudette found a way to make this work. If we can't, then the whole idea of Star Trek falls flat. Let's make believe, so that we can imagine what the future (of music, in this case) is like. That's what sci fi is all about.

Music is already thought at a young age. Over here, at least. Primary schools (5-12 year olds) teach music classes as standard (I believe they learn to play the flute), and secondary schools (13-18 years) have optional music classes you can take. Despite that, there's no outbreak of great musicians.

I'm talking younger. Like, 2-4 years old. And I'm not imagining some outbreak of great musicians. I'm imagining simply that more people will learn how to play music because it'll be easier to do so. If the UFP can feed and cloth hundreds of billions of people across hundreds of star systems (not to mention providing them with military security, and a generally awesome quality of life), then I'm pretty sure they can finance a hefty public music program.

Oh, I agree learning it would certainly be easier than today. Just not as easy as you seem to be suggesting.
And yeah, it'd be great if the comercialism around it was killed off.

Down with the RIAA!

[Sionnach Glic]

Same reason they're going to risk their lives in Starfleet for free.

Personaly I've never held the belief that they're doing it all for nothing. They have to be getting something out of it.
Also, I believe we've heard of one Federation ship's crew being paid, I'll try to find where that was.

Trek does send a mixed message about money, but my take is that there is no money in the federation.

There has to be some sort of currency. Even the USSR had money, and so does North Korea. Even in a communist state, things still have a cost, thus the state and its people require some means of purchasing goods and services. Whether this is by an actual currency (Federation Credits, as they had in TOS), some sort of precious element (latinum, perhaps) or simply going back to the barter system is unknown, but they have to have something.

I'm sure some people will teach for free, but I'm talking about interactive computers, holodecks, and that sort of thing.

Computers have a cost.

If there's no money, then lessons would be free. Or, maybe a kid could mow Mrs. Dandypants' lawn in exchange for lessons.

An exchange of services is one possible way to pay for them, as you suggest.

I don't know if I can give a satisfying answer to this one because Trek is so vague about economics.

Aye, one of the annoying things about Trek is the lack of any real info on how its run. One of the few things we're able to get from it is that it's some sort of near-communist state, so I like to just fill in the gaps by assuming it'll be similar to communist states we've had in history, just less oppresive.

I think energy has become cheap to produce,

Cheap =/= costs nothing.

and harvesting the raw materials for replication is probably a highly automated process.

Which requires the machines in question to be manufactured, shipped to the desired location, overseen by sapient personel, requires the harvested materials to be shipped elsewhere for processing, shipped back to Earth (for example), and then distributed. It all costs a lot. Particularly when you're sending such things through space.

We're getting pretty far off topic and beyond canon, but I understand how this applies to what I said. The bottom line is, once the infrastructure is in place, the replication process seems to be very efficient and highly self-sufficient (though not completely so, of course).

And where's the proof of that? The only real knowledge we have of replicators is from Starfleet vessels. Not great proof that it's easy to set up or self-sufficient. Indeed, it simply can't be self-sufficient because it can't make more stock out of nothing. It requires stock to be shipped to it, which even if we assume the actual replicators cost next to nothing to run will cost a lot.l

I think, also, the fact that there are no poor or hungry people in the UFP is evidence of this.

Yeah, I'm calling that just another piece of UFP propaganda.

Actually that's not true.
1)We have to pay for most of the valuable stuff. The internet can provide lots of access, sure, but that's mostly illegal, and not always easily navigated. And besides, fewer people on Earth have access to the internet than you might think.
2)The knowledge available for free today is going to be vastly inferior to what's available 300 years from now.

True, it won't be as good as what we have in a few centuries, but my point was that you can find guitar lessons for relatively nothing over the internet.

You're right, we don't know much about civilian life. I admit it is possible that civilians have to pay money, but like I said, my personal take is that there isn't money. Not that I'm a communist, nor do I believe this is feasible. I just think that's one of the basic principles behind GR's vision, and since it's fiction, I'm happy to suspend my disbelief. To do otherwise requires ignoring many established bits of canon, and that's kind of distracting, and not really fun.

Aye, GR obviously envisioned a state without currency of any sort.
Problem is, that's simply impossible. Everything has a cost to it, thus some sort of currency is required, even if it's just a barter system. You don't need to ignore canon for this, just take such lines as the UFP's official party lines. It's not as if they're above espousing how awesome they are compared to everyone else.

Ok, so let's say there is a cost. Obviously, there's some sort of giant government in place that oversees all this communism, and maybe it's actually found a way to work. So perhaps the cost of having music lessons and replicating an instrument is a state-funded endeavor. Heck, maybe UFP citizens have inalienable replicator rights!

If the citizens don't pay anything, how does the government get its money?

I appreciate that you're thinking so critically about this. You're absolutely right in proving the implausibility of a 'completely free' utopia, regarding replicators, holodecks - all that stuff. I concede that it's implausible. But, you know, let's just pretend that some awesome dude or dudette found a way to make this work. If we can't, then the whole idea of Star Trek falls flat. Let's make believe, so that we can imagine what the future (of music, in this case) is like. That's what sci fi is all about. [/quote

If there was somehow someway for this to work, then yes, music would be trivialy easy to learn and would probably be quite common.

On another note, have you ever read any of the Culture books by Ian M Banks? His society is quite like what you're describing. The Culture is a highly advanced post-scarcity society, run by super-advanced benevolent machines. Because of this, humans are free to basicaly do whatever they wish, as all the state's needs are taken care of by these machines. If you're interested in reading about such a society, I'd suggest you have a look. Even if you're not, you should anyway. They're great books.

Anyway, I'll fully concede that if the UFP achieved a post-scarcity situation (it hasn't, but let's roll with it) then what you're suggesting would be perfectly correct.

Down with the RIAA!

I'm not too familiar with them, but from what little I've heard I'm very glad I don't have to deal with them over here.

[Aaron]

Personaly I've never held the belief that they're doing it all for nothing. They have to be getting something out of it.
Also, I believe we've heard of one Federation ship's crew being paid, I'll try to find where that was.

Scotty buys a boat in STVI, Bones tries to hire a ship in STII, Kirk mentions hiring a ship in STIII, Scotty "earns his pay for the week" in TOS, Crusher buys some fabric in Encounter at Farpoint which gets charged to her account, DS9 crew regularly exchanges latinum for stuff at Quarks.

I'm with you though, they must be getting something out of this. Even in a military where everything is provided (Foreign Legion), your still given some cash to get drunk or buy porn.

[Tsukiyumi]

...my point was that you can find guitar lessons for relatively nothing over the internet...

Yeah, but a good guitar will set you back at least $2,000.

then $1,000 for a decent amp, $1,000 for a good pre-amp, $300 or so for a (sound)monitor and probably another $1,000 for a decent array of effects...

Unless you just want to play for yourself and friends, that is. If you really want to play for people, you have to pay a lot.

...I'm with you though, they must be getting something out of this. Even in a military where everything is provided (Foreign Legion), your still given some cash to get drunk or buy porn.

Maybe they get paid in booze and porn?

[Sionnach Glic]

Yeah, but a good guitar will set you back at least $2,000.

then $1,000 for a decent amp, $1,000 for a good pre-amp, $300 or so for a (sound)monitor and probably another $1,000 for a decent array of effects...

Unless you just want to play for yourself and friends, that is. If you really want to play for people, you have to pay a lot.

Oh, I know. I'm talking about finding information on how to play it.

[Mikey]

...

Certainly there have been references to non-human music being alive and well in 'Trek. Andorian blues (though that was clearly more of an attempt at a pun than anything,) etc; along with the many alien musical instruments we've seen.

[Sonic Glitch]

Personaly I've never held the belief that they're doing it all for nothing. They have to be getting something out of it.
Also, I believe we've heard of one Federation ship's crew being paid, I'll try to find where that was.

Scotty buys a boat in STVI, Bones tries to hire a ship in STII, Kirk mentions hiring a ship in STIII, Scotty "earns his pay for the week" in TOS, Crusher buys some fabric in Encounter at Farpoint which gets charged to her account, DS9 crew regularly exchanges latinum for stuff at Quarks.

At the very least, "buying" a boat may mean some sort of exchange of goods or services, and/or this was also TOS-Era when they may still have had the "credit" system. As for the other examples, I get the feeling that Kirk and Bones were looking for... "extralegal" means of transportation as Genesis was forbidden. It is conceivable that various space faring captains who would be willing to make such a journey also operate outside the Federations established economy.
And Crusher's transactions and DS9 take place outside of Federation territory. Deneb (Denab?, Farpoint Station whereever it is) was not a Federation planet, they were allowing the Feds to build a base there. DS9 is technically Bajoran territory and as such, subject to whatever Bajors economy is.

[Tyyr]

It's those outside the Federation transactions that actually make the idea of a "no money," economy not work. Crusher, anyone on DS9, etc. has to have some transferable wealth to be able to make those purchases. I'm pretty certain happy thoughts don't exchange very well into latinum.