Limits of the Holodeck (Legal/Moral)

[Tsukiyumi]

Wow, I really meant that as an illustration of the positive advancement of my personal moral core, but it came out all sorts of jaded.

[Aaron]

Wow, I really meant that as an illustration of the positive advancement of my personal moral core, but it came out all sorts of jaded.

Well it is 0515.

[Tsukiyumi]

Wow, I really meant that as an illustration of the positive advancement of my personal moral core, but it came out all sorts of jaded.

Well it is 0515.

04:24 here.

Tomorrow, I have to mow my lawn, cook some tacos, and do a lot of rehab exercises for all the walking I did today.

If I go to sleep before I'm dead tired, I'll dream, which can be great, but generally leaves me more exhausted than when I went to sleep. If you know what I mean.

I have little incentive to be asleep right now, in other words.

So... If I dream about 'violent' things, does that constitute criminal behavior? After all, the people who get hurt in my dreams seem perfectly real.

[Tyyr]

Wow this thread blew up.

Lets say I magically find myself in a holodeck, say right in the middle of a nice beach. Lets also assume I don't immediately go a little loopy demanding to know how I got there. Being the guy I am I kick back, relax, read a book, soak up some rays, take a dip in the ocean, and in general make a nice relaxing day of it. In other words I act exactly like I normally would at the beach. I don't immediately start murdering people.

Stitch, what would you do given the chance? Outlaw every book, movie, music, painting, sculpture, TV show, video game, etc that has any depiction of illegal activity? They are all simulating crimes and therefore by what you say should be as illegal as the crimes themselves. That's ridiculous. The biggest problem is that its obvious that simulating crimes does not have any bearing on actual behavior. Millions of people have watched Kirk in the new Trek movie gun down Romulans left and right. How many people who've watched those simulations of a crime have then proceeded to go out and kill the next tattoo'd person they see? How many people who play violent video games are going out and recreating those games?

Bring it back to the holodeck. If a perfectly rational, normal person steps onto a holodeck and decides they want to pull a bank heist, or go room clearing in Baghdad, or whatever, what makes you think they're going to go do it outside the holodeck? People simulate these activities right now, today, and don't do it. Someone on the holodeck knows they're in an environment every bit as real as GTA when they run these scenarios. They know if they walk off the holodeck, pull out a phaser, and start capping everyone they meet real people will die with real repercussions in the same way they know that's not true on the holodeck.

Can you agree that if I rob a bank in the holodeck no ACTUAL robbery has been committed? Forget all the intent or whatever. Have I actually stolen real property from a real person? No, I haven't. Therefore I can't be prosecuted for robbery. Can you prove that by simulating this robbery I'm going to go out and commit one for real? No, you can't. The preponderance of evidence is that people can differentiate between real and fake and act accordingly. Just because the holodeck looks real doesn't change the fact that I know its not and that the rules in there aren't different from the rules outside it. So you can't prove intent to commit a crime, which is legal shaky territory anyways. So what you're left with would be to make it a crime for me to even think about committing an illegal act. You're now in the very ugly world of policing people's thoughts. Where does it end? If you've made it illegal to ponder such thoughts in the holodeck why not grab a few Betazoids and start arresting people any where any time they think such things.

Ultimately you can't do that. Not in anything resembling a free society. Hell you can't do it in any society unless you're ready to jail the entire populace. Even a priest will occasionally have an impure thought. Even Mother Teressa probably thought of cold cocking some people from time to time. In the end you have to treat the holodeck like a big video game and occasionally people are going to play some disturbing games.

[Mikey]

Well said. Further, to bring that back to Stitch's idea about brain chemistry; the whole point of recreating these actions on the holodeck is to induce those changes in neurotransmitter activity, so the individuals concerned don't have to go out and do those things in real life.

Now, don't get me wrong; if a guy regularly uses a holoprogram about, like GK said, raping 6 year old girls, then he bears watching. But in a more generally-applicable sense, if I choose to play the holo-version of "Zombie Hooker Attack" and fry some virtual undead, it patently does NOT make me a criminal, nor even someone with criminal tendencies.

[stitch626]

Even though I have responses to everyones posts, I feel this is getting out of hand (for myself at least, unlike Blackstar, I know when to quit), so I'm really done.

It was fun though. I'll just stick with my unpopular opinion.


On another similar topic, what type of extremist groups would form with the development of the holodeck?
Holographic rights obviously (especially if ones existed such as the Doctor).
A holoPETA?
I'm sure there'd be something like Mother's Against Graphic Programs (made that up on the fly).

[Mikey]

A holoPETA?

Now THAT'S a scary thought.

[stitch626]

A holoPETA?

Now THAT'S a scary thought.

I actually shuddered a bit when typing that...

[Tyyr]

The existence of the Doctor will no doubt add significant fuel to the holoPETH cause. I have no doubt such a group exists.

[Mikey]

Well, there was that holo-SLA in the Delta Quadrant.

[Tyyr]

How would this be for a new sig line:
"On the holodeck I can create, rape, and murder a little girl. DITL told me so."

Had to say it, been a bug in my brain for like three days now.

[Mikey]

Really? That's been in your brain for three days?

...

[Tyyr]

The urge to write it.

[SomosFuga]

Well, there was that holo-SLA in the Delta Quadrant.

SLA?

[Mikey]

The Symbionese Liberation Army.