Tractor beams

Trek Books, Games and General chat
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
Posts: 35635
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:04 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: Tractor beams

Post by Mikey »

I'm not sure that's a fair assessment. For tasks as great as starship construction, they used shipyards/drydocks even as late as the VOY era.
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
Lazar
Captain
Captain
Posts: 2232
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:29 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Tractor beams

Post by Lazar »

Rochey wrote:Wasn't there something similar to a replicator in TOS? At the very least, there was a machine in And the Children Shall Lead that could make any type of ice cream you wanted appear in a very replicator-esque fasion.
Yes, they called them synthesizers. Maybe it's that those synthesizers used some kind of mechanical process to make the food, and that the use of transporter technology for food replication was a new feature in the 24th century.
"There was also a large horse in the room, taking up most of it."
SomosFuga
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 9:37 pm
Location: Perú

Re: Tractor beams

Post by SomosFuga »

GrahamKennedy wrote:I reeeealy don't find it hard to believe that they could build shuttles. We have kit cars right now, all it takes is a decently large garage space and a little equipment to assemble one. And I have no problem believing that Voyager could replicate most of the parts required for a shuttle. We know the E-D could replicate a whole computer core from The Next Phase. The only thing I can think of that might be hard to replicate is warp coils, and I can easily see a room somewhere on Voyager with a few hundred of those stacked up like spare car tires.
I agree, i think they could bring some parts with them, replicate some other parts then just assemble those all together and presto: Brand new shuttle. Of course the Delta Flyer is a little bit more compicated but we've starfleet crews making some out of the ordinary thinks before.
Trata las situaciones estresantes como lo haría 1 perro: si no puedes comértelo o jugar con ello, méate encima y lárgate!!!

Handle stressful situations as a dog would: if you can't eat it or play with it, pee on it and get out of there!!!
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

Re: Tractor beams

Post by Tyyr »

SomosFuga wrote:The way they were constructing the Enterprise in ST:XI looked very traditional to me so assuming they had similar tech in the main timeline i don't think they had "realy big starship/starbase builder replicators" at TOS age.
I don't think anyone's suggesting the replication of any major components in any time period and certainly not something that could replicate large portions of a ship. Its obvious that doing so is not feasible just from seeing the starship's being built in any time period. My own personal take on it being that while smaller bits can be replicated, large metallic items were energy intensive, intensive enough that even starships preferred to just bring along commonly required spare parts instead of replicating them. In a pinch (like say you crash shuttles just for the fun of it, looking at you Voyager) you could replicate things like shuttle parts if needed to help build new ones but on the whole the energy requirements still made it better to make things the old fashioned way.

Anyways, my point is that smaller component fabrication might be feasible with replicators but I don't think anyone would suggest you could just replicate whole chunks of a monster like starbase 74.
SomosFuga
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 9:37 pm
Location: Perú

Re: Tractor beams

Post by SomosFuga »

In TNG they had replicators
in TOS they had food synthesizers
in Ent they had protein resequencers
Trata las situaciones estresantes como lo haría 1 perro: si no puedes comértelo o jugar con ello, méate encima y lárgate!!!

Handle stressful situations as a dog would: if you can't eat it or play with it, pee on it and get out of there!!!
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: Tractor beams

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Lazar wrote:Yes, they called them synthesizers. Maybe it's that those synthesizers used some kind of mechanical process to make the food, and that the use of transporter technology for food replication was a new feature in the 24th century.
Doubtful. In ENT they were capable of turning shit into shoes, so they obviously had a primitive version of the tech back then.
Lighthawk wrote:Just because they are in the ass end of nowhere doesn't mean they're underdeveloped, it just means they're a really far way away from the federation core worlds.
Quite true. And thus are unlikely to have everything necessary to build a station just lying around, necessitating that the equipment be brought from elsewhere. More on this later.
Lighthawk wrote:No idea, my knowledge of TOS is pretty limited.
As others have clarified, they're "Synthesizers". Same principal, however.
Lighthawk wrote:I'm not saying it's impossible, just impractical, especially with replicators. Prior to the replicators though, I still would argue against it. I'd sooner expect them to have large cargo vessels hauling the raw materials to the location and then putting it together there.
I think you're underestimating just how difficult such an undertaking would be.

Let's say you're building a station somewhere on the UFP's border.
First, you need the replicator itself. To speed it up, you'd probably need several. So you need to use tugs to warp them to the system.
Then you need the personel to run the replicators, who require food, accomidation, etc.
Then you need fuel for the replicators, which needs to be shipped from another system, incurring greater costs and time.
Then you need to ship to stock for the replicators from other systems, incurring more cost and time.
Then, as the station probably won't be produced in one big finished product, you'll need ships and equipment to fit those pieces together, people to operate them, and all the associated costs.
Then you'll need warships to guard the site as the construction's going on, to prevent anyone nicking the stuff.
Then you need to ship the crew of the finished station to the system.
Then you need to move all the ships, equipment, personel, etc back to Earth (or wherever they're stationed).

Whereas if you were to build it at Earth, all the equipment, supplies, personel, crew, etc are already lying around. The only serious cost you'd have would be shipping the station to its new location.
Lighthawk wrote:...that, or they have some kind of space station rig with warp engines on it that they can slap onto large objects and warp them. It'd probably be slow and fuel hungry, but having the engines on the station moving it directly makes more sense to me then trying to coordinate a dozen or more ships at several times the speed of light. If just one ship veered off by a fraction of a degree for even half a second, it'd open a gap of thousands of miles between itself and the rest of the fleet, and then you'd have a warp speed tug of war.
Who says you need dozens? A single ship of sufficient engine strength would be capable of doing it.
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
Posts: 35635
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:04 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: Tractor beams

Post by Mikey »

Yep. Space is pretty empty. You don't need to exert constant thrust to maintain a given velocity.
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
SomosFuga
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 9:37 pm
Location: Perú

Re: Tractor beams

Post by SomosFuga »

Rochey wrote:
Lighthawk wrote:...that, or they have some kind of space station rig with warp engines on it that they can slap onto large objects and warp them. It'd probably be slow and fuel hungry, but having the engines on the station moving it directly makes more sense to me then trying to coordinate a dozen or more ships at several times the speed of light. If just one ship veered off by a fraction of a degree for even half a second, it'd open a gap of thousands of miles between itself and the rest of the fleet, and then you'd have a warp speed tug of war.
Who says you need dozens? A single ship of sufficient engine strength would be capable of doing it.
We have never seen nor heard of anything like those in the fleet.
Mikey wrote:Yep. Space is pretty empty. You don't need to exert constant thrust to maintain a given velocity.
At warp speed, yes you do.
Trata las situaciones estresantes como lo haría 1 perro: si no puedes comértelo o jugar con ello, méate encima y lárgate!!!

Handle stressful situations as a dog would: if you can't eat it or play with it, pee on it and get out of there!!!
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
Posts: 35635
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:04 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: Tractor beams

Post by Mikey »

SomosFuga wrote:We have never seen nor heard of anything like those in the fleet.
Begging your pardon, but I have heard of FTL engines in Starfleet.
SomosFuga wrote:At warp speed, yes you do.
Do tell? Source, please? You have to maintain a warp field, granted; but you probably don't need a hgih-speed engine to do so.
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
SomosFuga
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 9:37 pm
Location: Perú

Re: Tractor beams

Post by SomosFuga »

Mikey wrote:
SomosFuga wrote:We have never seen nor heard of anything like those in the fleet.
Begging your pardon, but I have heard of FTL engines in Starfleet.
FTL, yes of course, but we are talking about a starship capable of towing SB 74 through thousands of light years all by herself, so again, we have never seen nor heard of anything like those in the fleet.

BTW i was referring to Lighthawk's idea
some kind of space station rig with warp engines on it that they can slap onto large objects and warp them.
For both ideas, i'm not saying it's impossible, just that i find it very difficult to acomplish to say the least.
Mikey wrote:
SomosFuga wrote:At warp speed, yes you do.
Do tell? Source, please? You have to maintain a warp field, granted; but you probably don't need a hgih-speed engine to do so.
We know photon torpedoes have some kind of warp sustainer system that maintain the warp field and allows the torpedo to keep in warp for some time if they were fire at warp speed, but that and maintain a several hundreds meters starship (to say nothing of a starship towing SB 74) at warp through a medium range space travel without a warp engine are two very different things, you could probably need a very powerfull engine to do such a task.
Plus we have seen Voyager going out of warp immediately when they ejected the warp core in "Day of Honor" hence you probably do need a high-speed engine to do so.
Trata las situaciones estresantes como lo haría 1 perro: si no puedes comértelo o jugar con ello, méate encima y lárgate!!!

Handle stressful situations as a dog would: if you can't eat it or play with it, pee on it and get out of there!!!
Nickswitz
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
Posts: 6748
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Home
Contact:

Re: Tractor beams

Post by Nickswitz »

SomosFuga wrote:We know photon torpedoes have some kind of warp sustainer system that maintain the warp field and allows the torpedo to keep in warp for some time if they were fire at warp speed, but that and maintain a several hundreds meters starship (to say nothing of a starship towing SB 74) at warp through a medium range space travel without a warp engine are two very different things, you could probably need a very powerfull engine to do such a task.
Plus we have seen Voyager going out of warp immediately when they ejected the warp core in "Day of Honor" hence you probably do need a high-speed engine to do so.
About the torpedoes, source, I've never heard that they had FTL engines in them, if they did couldn't they speed up before impact to increase damage greatly...

And about the Warp core ejection. The warp core is the main source of power, and in order to keep the warp field stable you need power, which without a warp core, would be lacking severely. So no, it was not the engine that was the problem, it was the warp field colapsing that took them out of warp... If it was stated otherwise, then give me a source for it, I'll gladly accept being told I'm wrong.
The world ended

"Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world" - R.D.Lang
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
Posts: 35635
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:04 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: Tractor beams

Post by Mikey »

SomosFuga wrote:We know photon torpedoes have some kind of warp sustainer system that maintain the warp field(sic) and allows the torpedo to keep in warp for some time if they were fire at warp speed
Key point italicized.
SomosFuga wrote:you could probably need a very powerfull engine to do such a task.
Plus we have seen Voyager going out of warp immediately when they ejected the warp core in "Day of Honor" hence you probably do need a high-speed engine to do so.
None of this in any way indicates the presence of drag at warp speed. Hence, once the object is at the desired velocity, no thrust is necessary.
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
Mark
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 17671
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

Re: Tractor beams

Post by Mark »

I wouldn't imagine they could hold the field TOO long or that you'd want them too. To you REALLY want a FTL explosive even getting slightly away from you?
They say that in the Army,
the women are mighty fine.
They look like Phyllis Diller,
and walk like Frankenstein.
Lazar
Captain
Captain
Posts: 2232
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:29 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Tractor beams

Post by Lazar »

Mikey wrote:None of this in any way indicates the presence of drag at warp speed. Hence, once the object is at the desired velocity, no thrust is necessary.
Well you're talking about warp drive as if it's a form of Newtonian propulsion, and it's not. It isn't thrust that gets a ship moving at a given warp factor, it's subspace distortion. From talk of warp sustainers on torpedoes, and stuff like the (non-canon) warp energy scale in the TNG:TM, we can posit that it takes more energy to accelerate to a given warp factor than to maintain it, but still, you need to constantly maintain a warp field and that will require the constant expenditure of energy.
"There was also a large horse in the room, taking up most of it."
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
Posts: 35635
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:04 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: Tractor beams

Post by Mikey »

Which "fact" I had already posited. However, it still stands to reason that maintaining a warp field requires considerably less energy than accelerating.
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
Post Reply