Any Star Trek ships capable of performing a BDZ operation?

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

The complete bombardment, using one ship, of a planet all the way down to the mantle? Are there any Star Trek ships capable of that?

[Teaos]

A phaser locked on target could burn through the crust but the second you hit the mantle more magma will just flow in to fill the hole you make.

[Graham Kennedy]

First off, we don't do "is X more powerful than Y" on this forum. So no more talking about how the two stack up against one another please.


That said, if you want a discussion of planetary bombardment in Trek in and of itself, that's fine.

From "The Die Is Cast", discussing preparations for a fleet of 20 ships to attack the Founder's planet :

Tain : "Our plan is to wait until we've entered orbit of the Founder's planet, then decloak and begin massive bombardment."
Lovok : "Computer analysis indicates that the planet's crust will be destroyed within one hour and the mantle within five."

As it transpires, the fleet destroyed thirty percent of the crust in their opening volley, which took a matter of seconds, so the analysis was rather conservative. I assume they had planned for ships to take a break between volleys to check on weapons status, or to divert ships to defence against whatever forces might have been present, or somesuch.

Anyway, it's simple math - 20 ships destroy 30% of a crust in one volley means one ship can destroy an entire planetary crust in 67 volleys.

[Sionnach Glic]

I'm a bit iffy over the TDiC thing. The visuals don't suggest anywhere near the amount of damage that was stated, and the whole thing was set-up by the Founders in any case, who'd have wanted the Romulans to believe they'd levelled the planet's surface.
Also, such power simply doesn't fit in with everything else we know of Trek weapons. Hell, in the Photorp quantification thread we're getting numbers nowhere near the amount needed to perform a full BDZ style operation on the planet.

Basicaly, I'd say they could level everything on the surface, but they won't be slagging the surface itself.

[Graham Kennedy]

I'm a bit iffy over the TDiC thing. The visuals don't suggest anywhere near the amount of damage that was stated, and the whole thing was set-up by the Founders in any case, who'd have wanted the Romulans to believe they'd levelled the planet's surface.

Me, I don't put all that much faith in visuals. Certainly not compared to dialogue, which is what the writers actually intended the show to do. Though I will note that we certainly DO see weapon effects rapidly spreading out over many thousands of miles in a matter of seconds, as seen in this shot :



And this one



So while we might argue about exactly what the special effects are depicting there, they are certainly depicting effects that spread out across approximately 30% of the planet's crust, are they not?

On the other issue, it makes absolutely no sense to have Lovok lie. He's trying to get the Cardies and Rommies to go along with this plan. It is basic common sense that the plan has to make enough sense to them that they will actually go along with it. So why lie? If his projections were an outrageous exaggeration he'd have been caught the first time any military officer in either fleet heard it, and the entire plan would have ended right then and there.

Hell, even Tain and Garak would be expected to have a basic functioning knowledge of weaponry. Sure they aren't military officers, but surely enough that you wouldn't tell flat out lies to them that are likely to defeat your entire plan.

Imagine a present day equivalent. Imagine going to the US Navy and saying "We will gather 20 Destroyers together and go to Russia, and then they will use their 5 inch guns and obliterate the entire continent in a matter of hours!"

Can anybody actually imagine that somebody would use that line in a serious attempt to fool the US Navy about the effectiveness of their own weapons? Can anybody seriously imagine that such a foolish lie would work?

Come on, let's be serious here.

As for the Founders, why would they want them to believe that they had levelled the surface? The fleet was already in the trap by the time they opened up; the Jem'Hadar ambush was sprung within seconds of the first volley. What possible difference could it make if they spent that ten seconds fooled or not? I can't think of any reason why the Founders would care one way or another.

Also, such power simply doesn't fit in with everything else we know of Trek weapons.

Then we surely need to come up with justifications for why that is so, don't we? Isn't the better theory one that accomodates all the evidence, rather than sounding nice whilst discounting some of the evidence?

And incidentally, there are several other references in Trek to ships having the firepower to utterly devastate planets.

Basicaly, I'd say they could level everything on the surface, but they won't be slagging the surface itself.

If you want to believe that then fair enough, but that's NOT what it says in the episode.

[Duskofdead]

I'm a bit iffy over the TDiC thing. The visuals don't suggest anywhere near the amount of damage that was stated, and the whole thing was set-up by the Founders in any case, who'd have wanted the Romulans to believe they'd levelled the planet's surface.
Also, such power simply doesn't fit in with everything else we know of Trek weapons. Hell, in the Photorp quantification thread we're getting numbers nowhere near the amount needed to perform a full BDZ style operation on the planet.

Basicaly, I'd say they could level everything on the surface, but they won't be slagging the surface itself.

Are you implying the Founders' planet was somehow more weapons resistant than any other planet? Aside from size, a planet is pretty much a planet I would think, unless it's some really unusual case made up of a high level of some unusually strong element. No one seemed surprised or impressed out of the norm with the idea that they would destroy a lot of crust in an opening volley, it seemed to be in keeping with what they expected they were capable of doing.

As far as the visual effects, if you mean we didn't see big chunks of rock and gas flying up into the air, yeah, they skimped on the budget there. But the spread of the weapon energy effects over the planet do look to be in the neighborhood of 30%.

[Tsukiyumi]

I'm with Graham and Dusk 100% on this one. Dialogue should trump visuals because of budget constraints.

[Graham Kennedy]

Contrast TDIC with...

A Taste of Armageddon

Scotty : "All cities and installations on Eminiar VII have been located, identified and fed into our fire control system. In one hour forty five minutes the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed."

Bread And Circuses

Marcus : "From what I understand, your vessel could lay waste to the entire surface of the world."

Whom Gods Destroy

McCoy : "How can we be powerful enough to wipe out a planet and still be so helpless!"

Broken Link

Garak : "Don't you see? We have an opportunity here. A chance to end the Dominion threat once and for all. We have enough firepower on this ship to turn that planet into a smoking cinder! Personally, I think that would be a very good thing!"

I mean come on folks, just how many times does it need to be clearly and emphatically stated?

[mlsnoopy]

The problem would be the Breen atacke on Earth. There we saw minimal damage. But that can be explained away by the fact that Earth is the capital and would probably be heavaly shielded.

[kostmayer]

Well, there's still little information about what the Breen attack involved. Perhaps they sent smaller faster ships that they knew could break through to Earth, and concentrated on Starfleet Headquarters, their primary target.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Dang, I was about to mention General Order 24. Curse you, Graham!

Yeah, I think most heavy capital ships could lay waste to a planet's surface from TOS on. Antimatter explosives and phasers raining down death from above.

[Sionnach Glic]

Okay, firstly, I think we need to find out exactly what's being asked in this thread.
By "BDZ", does the thread creator simply mean the destruction of everything on the surface, or a fully-fledged BDZ with the surface of the planet being turned into "molten slag"?

Any Trek ship could certainly do the former, and simply blast the surface, and everything on it, to bits. I'm not contesting that at all. However, a full BDZ seems to be beyond what we've seen ships do. There's been references to destroying everything on the surface of the planet, and evidence to back that up (The Die is Cast), but I've never seen anything indicating full surface-melting attacks are within their capability.

[Duskofdead]

We haven't seen them DO it, except for species 8472. However we have stated dialogue that they can, so I'm not sure why you are saying "but I've never seen anything indicating full surface-melting attacks are within their capability", Rochey.

Unless Kirk, the Federation, the Cardassians and the Romulans all equally were deluded about their capabilities?

There's perfectly plausible reasons we haven't seen them doing it. A planet is useless if you turn it into molten slag.

[Captain Seafort]

It's pretty clear that a starship could do a tremendous amount of damage to a planet - flatten cities, burn vast areas of countryside, kill billions. Whether they're capable of wiping out every last living thing on a planet, right down to the bottom of the oceans, is another matter. They simply don't have the firepower for that.

[Sionnach Glic]

Er, where have they stated they can melt the surface of a planet?

All of the quotes Graham previously provided indicates destroying things on the surface of the planet, which is definitely within their capabilities.
The only time planet-slagging capabilities have, to my knowledge, been mentioned was a vague throw-away remark by Tom Paris along the lines of "What's she going to do with that [photon torpedo]? Blow up a small planet?" which is unusable for a number of obvious reasons.