Maps

[Teaos]

I have always found the lay out of the local powers very interesting. I thought we could look at Grahams ideas of the lay out and size of them and see what we think.





For me I find several problems with the above maps.

• In the first map it shows the Romulan Empire as rather large. Now given this is very close to the time of the Earth/Romulan war and Humans had not been in space very long. So I think that for humans to not only fight but win the war the Romulan empire could not be very strong at that time.

• Looking at the size difference between the powers in the first map and the second I feel the growth seen is far to large. Many of the species shown have been in space hundreds if not thousands of years (I believe the Romulans left Vulcan several millennia ago) for them to be sitting on a small area of space for a long time then suddenly double and triple their territory. The federation expanding is understandable, more species join them. But the only way the other species can expand is through settling empty systems which would be rather slow and not add to power for several hundred years, or through conquest which seems unlikely for them to do it so fast.

• The fact that the Federation is pretty much a solid block barring the few blobs out west. Not everyone would want to join them so there should be blocks of non Federation space everywhere.

What are your thoughts on them? I have looked at different maps and some even switch the position of powers or have them with hugely different sizes.

[Captain Seafort]

• In the first map it shows the Romulan Empire as rather large. Now given this is very close to the time of the Earth/Romulan war and Humans had not been in space very long. So I think that for humans to not only fight but win the war the Romulan empire could not be very strong at that time.

I don't think this is much of a problem. We know next to nothing about the Earth-Romulan War, but the implication from the later episodes of Enterprise suggests that they intended to retcon it into a format very similar to the Dominion war, with the Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites playing important parts as Earth's allies.

• Looking at the size difference between the powers in the first map and the second I feel the growth seen is far to large. Many of the species shown have been in space hundreds if not thousands of years (I believe the Romulans left Vulcan several millennia ago) for them to be sitting on a small area of space for a long time then suddenly double and triple their territory. The federation expanding is understandable, more species join them. But the only way the other species can expand is through settling empty systems which would be rather slow and not add to power for several hundred years, or through conquest which seems unlikely for them to do it so fast.

Good point, and I think the Federation's expansion during the period has been overestimated. Having expanded the Federation to that degree, the other Empires also need to be expanded in order for the threat they pose to be a credible one.

• The fact that the Federation is pretty much a solid block barring the few blobs out west. Not everyone would want to join them so there should be blocks of non Federation space everywhere.

I think that's what the "fingers" in the southern part of the Federation are meant to indicate.

What are your thoughts on them? I have looked at different maps and some even switch the position of powers or have them with hugely different sizes.

Most of the powers seem to be in about the right place, although I think the Cardassians should be "west" of the Federation, in the approximate area occupied by the "fingers". Size-wise I think the Tholians and Gorn have been seriously overestimated and the Cardassians, and to a lesser extent the Romulans underestimated. The Tholians were barely mentioned after "The Tholian Web", and while they were clearly aggressive, they only seemed to pose a threat to their immediate targets, rather than the Federation as a whole. The Gorn were only ever mentioned by implication, with references to Cestus III (apparently the Feds were allowed to keep it). The Cardassians, however, were able to fight the Federation to a standstill during the war, and force them to surrender territory in the treaty's boarder re-jigging. This suggests that they have a substantially greater industrial base relative to the Federation than is depicted by the map. The Romulans pose a similar problem - the map depicts them as roughly equal to the Tholians, whereas their involvement in galactic politics clearly shows them to be one of the three Great Powers of the quadrant.

[Teaos]

I don't think this is much of a problem. We know next to nothing about the Earth-Romulan War, but the implication from the later episodes of Enterprise suggests that they intended to retcon it into a format very similar to the Dominion war, with the Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites playing important parts as Earth's allies.

I'd agree with you that with the help of the other powers the humans could put up a better fight. But I tend to try to ignore everything ENT established about the Romulans. The fact that it is called the Earth/Romulan war to me implies it is mostly those two powers, with maybe some industrial or information aid from the other powers to the humans.

There is also some species loyalty thrown in here, but I'd like to believe humans fought and won the war by themselves pretty much. It was what helped establish them.

Good point, and I think the Federation's expansion during the period has been overestimated. Having expanded the Federation to that degree, the other Empires also need to be expanded in order for the threat they pose to be a credible one.

I dont mind the Federation expansion. The way I see it pretty much any species around who wants a say in galactic politics but doesnt have the power of the Romulans, Klingons or Vulcans had to join them. So while the Federtion may be large space wise a lot of it is dead weight.

I think that's what the "fingers" in the southern part of the Federation are meant to indicate.

Yeah I notices that but I put it down to species joining who happened to control that block of space before they joined. But the big block of Federation space in the middle it still odd. Maybe there are spaces they dont own but they color them Federation anyway since they don't matter stategically.

Size-wise I think the Tholians and Gorn have been seriously overestimated and the Cardassians, and to a lesser extent the Romulans underestimated.

Yes. I see no reason why we should presume they expand over time. Maybe they are quite happy building up the space they do have. It should stay pretty much the same with only very slow spread due to colony placements.

As for the Romulans. You don't need big space to be powerful, just rich space. The Cardassians are said to come from a poor part of space. If the Romulans have a strong industrial base they may not need a large territory.

[mlsnoopy]

The maps are rather good. From all the fan made maps i've seen I like them the beast. They are simple and give the general idea how the ST universe is shaped.

But like all the maps it can't display the 3d shape. One thing that its obvius is that the Breen shoul be on top of the Federation, probably along the border to the Romulans and touching the Klingon space.

The size of the Cardasian union is a littel under 1000ly, that I think should be just right, where as the size of the Breen space would also be right, if you would put it on the sugested location.

[Captain Seafort]

I'd agree with you that with the help of the other powers the humans could put up a better fight. But I tend to try to ignore everything ENT established about the Romulans. The fact that it is called the Earth/Romulan war to me implies it is mostly those two powers, with maybe some industrial or information aid from the other powers to the humans.

There is also some species loyalty thrown in here, but I'd like to believe humans fought and won the war by themselves pretty much. It was what helped establish them.

The fact that humans seem to be the dominant species in the Federation supports this, but the fact that the Federation was formed immediately after the war suggests a wartime origin. It's much like the UN in that respect, which originated as the allied powers of WW2, even if the wartime alliance rapidly broke down.

Yeah I notices that but I put it down to species joining who happened to control that block of space before they joined. But the big block of Federation space in the middle it still odd. Maybe there are spaces they dont own but they color them Federation anyway since they don't matter stategically.

From Insurrection, we know that the Federation claims planets within their area of effective control as their own, even if they're occupied by non-member species, rather than having bubbles of non-Fed territory.

Yes. I see no reason why we should presume they expand over time. Maybe they are quite happy building up the space they do have. It should stay pretty much the same with only very slow spread due to colony placements.

My argument isn't based on their expansion so much as their influence within the quadrant - they simply don't have the influence for an assertion that their space is equa to that of the Romulans to be realistic.

As for the Romulans. You don't need big space to be powerful, just rich space. The Cardassians are said to come from a poor part of space. If the Romulans have a strong industrial base they may not need a large territory.

To a certain extent, yes, but the sheer quantity of accessable resources available from a single star system is such that minor local variations wouldn't allow a political entity to stand toe to toe with one with double it's volume (as with the Klingons and Romulans), far less one with well over ten times its volume (as with the Federation and the Cardassians).

[Teaos]

The fact that humans seem to be the dominant species in the Federation supports this, but the fact that the Federation was formed immediately after the war suggests a wartime origin. It's much like the UN in that respect, which originated as the allied powers of WW2, even if the wartime alliance rapidly broke down.

Seems reasonable. Especially since Humans and Vulcans were sloce and there is no love lost between Vulcans and Romulans.

The rest of the powers arent exactly fond of them either.

From Insurrection, we know that the Federation claims planets within their area of effective control as their own, even if they're occupied by non-member species, rather than having bubbles of non-Fed territory.

I don't think that was established well. I cant recall where Insurrection was set but the Federation didn't claim the planet so much as unlawfully experimented with it.

My argument isn't based on their expansion so much as their influence within the quadrant - they simply don't have the influence for an assertion that their space is equa to that of the Romulans to be realistic.

Size doesn't matter with influence. The Romulans were very quite for over 100 years after the E/R war even though they still had large territory and power.

To a certain extent, yes, but the sheer quantity of accessable resources available from a single star system is such that minor local variations wouldn't allow a political entity to stand toe to toe with one with double it's volume (as with the Klingons and Romulans), far less one with well over ten times its volume (as with the Federation and the Cardassians).

Its not just the raw materials involved but the industrial base behind it. If the Romulans had built up their space better than others such as the Klingons then they could be quite powerful. Having a well built up smaller area has advantages over less developed larger areas.

[Aaron]

I don't think that was established well. I cant recall where Insurrection was set but the Federation didn't claim the planet so much as unlawfully experimented with it.

There are six hundred people down
there. We'll be able to use the
regenerative properties of this
radiation to help billions.
(beat)
The Son'a have developed a
procedure to collect the
metaphasic particles form the
planets rings...

PICARD
A planet in Federation space...

DOUGHERTY
Right. We have the planet and
they have the technology -- a
technology we can't duplicate.
You know what that makes us?
Their partners.

Direct from the Trekcore INS script. That's crystal clear that the Federation considers the Baku planet there's.

[Captain Seafort]

I don't think that was established well. I cant recall where Insurrection was set but the Federation didn't claim the planet so much as unlawfully experimented with it.

Picard refered to Ba'ku as "a planet in Federation space", but that could refer to mere geogrpahy, in the same way that Lesotho and Swaziland are "in" South Africa. Dougherty, on the other hand, specifically stated that "we have the planet, [the Son'a] have the technology", implying that the Federation considered Ba'ku to be it's property.

Size doesn't matter with influence. The Romulans were very quite for over 100 years after the E/R war even though they still had large territory and power.

They were quiet, but they still had a significant influence, as demonstrated by the fact that the Federation deployed Constitution-class starships, its most powerful warships, to patrol the Neutral Zone.

Its not just the raw materials involved but the industrial base behind it. If the Romulans had built up their space better than others such as the Klingons then they could be quite powerful. Having a well built up smaller area has advantages over less developed larger areas.

True, but lacking evidence of the relevative development of the various entities, it's probably best to consider the ratio of potential to actual industrial strength to be roughly equal for all the major powers.

[Jim]

Looking at the size difference between the powers in the first map and the second I feel the growth seen is far to large. Many of the species shown have been in space hundreds if not thousands of years (I believe the Romulans left Vulcan several millennia ago) for them to be sitting on a small area of space for a long time then suddenly double and triple their territory. The federation expanding is understandable, more species join them. But the only way the other species can expand is through settling empty systems which would be rather slow and not add to power for several hundred years, or through conquest which seems unlikely for them to do it so fast.

Well, in the first none of the territories touch. It is possible that they didn't expand much because they had no real reason to. I am sure they were expanding slowly, but they might not have had a need for rapid expansion. THEN... the Federation formed. Suddenly there was a group that wanted to explore as much as possible and while exploring kept adding new races/planets/systems to their group. The Federation suddenly became an ever-expanding possible threat. THis would spur any race (especially military based) to jump into expansion themselves. Both to give them more resources and to claim territory before anyone else does.

THink of it like technology now. When someone comes out with something, suddenly that market explodes and everyone starts making it. That tech may have been around for a while and no one really developed it. Then one company makes a move and everyone else jumps on baord.

[Teaos]

Well, in the first none of the territories touch. It is possible that they didn't expand much because they had no real reason to. I am sure they were expanding slowly, but they might not have had a need for rapid expansion. THEN... the Federation formed. Suddenly there was a group that wanted to explore as much as possible and while exploring kept adding new races/planets/systems to their group.

Thats something like I was thinking. It also explanes the rapid rate of technological advancement, competition breeds excellence.

[Mikey]

I have no problem with the Cardassian Union being as small as it is, because it fits with the on-screen allusions to the Cardies being relatively resource-poor and somewhat limited in materiel capacity.

I do think that the expansion shown among most of the powers is rather too great for two centuries, considering that most of them have been spacefaring powers before that. The UFP in particular I don't have too much of a problem with, because humanity has been shown to be a young, motivated "driving force" in the Federation.

As far as the RSE - having as large a territory as they do in the first map doesn't seem to me to be a huge problem regarding the Earth-Romulan War. We've seen that the Romulans have the resources and tech to create some amazing things - cloaking devices, etc. - but technological acheivement in other areas lags ("simple impulse power,") which can't be remedied by resource wealth alone.

[Teaos]

PICARD
A planet in Federation space...

DOUGHERTY
Right. We have the planet and
they have the technology -- a
technology we can't duplicate.
You know what that makes us?
Their partners.

That just means the Son'a cant get to it with out going through Federation space. Not that the Federation own it.

True, but lacking evidence of the relevative development of the various entities, it's probably best to consider the ratio of potential to actual industrial strength to be roughly equal for all the major powers.

Not really. The Romulans are shown to be technologically in advance of the Klingons, Stronger ships, better tech (cloak). That would lead one to believe that they would have better tech over all and thus be able to utilize resources better.

[Mikey]

lead one to believe that they would have better tech over all

That is contradicted by TOS:Balance of Terror and TNG eps in which Romulan quantum singularity power generation was described as unstable or difficult and dangerous to control. What this leads one to believe is that Romulan technological advancement is uneven.

[Teaos]

described as unstable or difficult and dangerous to control.

So is a nuclear power plant but they are pretty advanced. maybe the Romulans decided the risks involved were out weighed by the advantages.

[Mikey]

If power output, etc., are sufficient in both cases for "hard driving," then the safer/easier method is more advanced thatn the unsafe/difficult method.