Starship Lore : Akira Class - A Controversial Warship

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Re: Starship Lore : Akira Class - A Controversial Warship

Postby AlexMcpherson79 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:33 pm

I think what happens for the '100 year life span' is more that as the designs got older, they were still somewhat kept up to date, with high-mass transporters basically used to 'take out the old' and then new stuff fitted piece-meal... but major refits like that are NOT as often as you'd think. Look at the Constitution. When was Captain April in charge? wasn't it April, Pike, Kirk, and then it was refitted... but by year, the year that April took command, vs when Kirk brought pre-refit Enterprise back? This very site puts, for the Constitution, a major refit after 20 years.

How would we define those?

A Major Refit would be as implied in dialogue in TMP - "An All-new ship, little left of the original". Internally, and sometimes externally, as major as that which the Enterprise underwent.
A Standard would differ fromt he Major, as its not as big as completely replacing the old warp drive with the new. Perhaps a complete replacement of "Old for an upgraded newer version but not dissimilar new" bits like, new nacelles, replaced nacelle struts, new hull plating... but the general lines of the ship remain the same. Best way I can describe it for 'visual external' example for this is actually caused by different lighting conditions when filming the miniatures - sometimes the ship hull looks a dull grey, sometimes blue, but never the actual color that the model was painted. It would be like the Enterprise D Hull, say, the first three seasons, being depicted as a slightly blue-ish grey, and even a 'close up' shot like say, the one of the neck when Worfs' one-time-GF and Alexanders' mother first came onto the Enterprise via Torpedo at Warp - from that shot, the hull looks like its that 'Aztec' pattern with each physical panel a slightly different color to its neighbour but at a distance you can't tell. Then season 4 onward, that same shot would show a large difference that is not visible at a distance - no Aztec. Smooth hull plating, a single color instead of an aztec color pattern... except at a distance there is still something you can tell different - the color, the whole ship appears slightly more like a blue/white, like the hull is noticably brighter. This would be a stnadard refit changing out the 'skin' of the ship for probably-worn panels for all-new panels, but they just did a different paint job.
By this argument, the changes to the model of the original enterprise between Pike's pilot and Kirks' Pilot is explained in-univsere by this - new nacelles, a few upgrades here and there but otherwise still like 60% the same ship as what entered port.

A minor is like what Voyager did with adding astrometrics - something must have been in the place of that room, and all those sensors can't be IN that room. but externally, you wouldn't know it. Here, it's more a case of 90% of the ship being the same leaving as when it entered port for refit.

Put these are like: 2 years, 5 (or 7) years, and 20 years... suddenly you can have a ship thats low down the NCC range (for its class) last 60 years, but about 20 years after it was first built, more of the class are being built, specifically to the 'new' design, so the first major refit change for that ship involves sort of the same physical changes as that first ships' SECOND major refit... and this ship also lasts 60 years, but just between these two, means that the class lasted for *80* years.

The idea then that Starfleet can have a rather large fleet of *old* ships which have crews that can give the ships their own minor refit without pulling into port, a standard can be done at any starbase, and only the major ones need pulling into a drydock? And that a Major Refit takes less effort than just building another of that class of the new design? So long as you consider that Utopia Planetia isn't the sole shipyard of the federation, then I dont see the problem.
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Re: Starship Lore : Akira Class - A Controversial Warship

Postby McAvoy » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:52 am

That is all well understood. Minor refits involving replacing outdated equipment and putting new equipment. But the exterior remains the same. To say that a 100 year old design can be modernized like the Lakota could for example stretches it alot unless you view Trek as having a slow pace of technology revolution but having a steady pace of technology evolution.

I mean, the basic layout of a modern aircraft carrier has remained the same for the past sixty years with the two major changes being the placement of elevators and propulsion. However, that doesn't mean a ship can remain in servo e indefinitely. For example, the Enterprise herself during her last years with the Navy cost hundreds of millions dollars every time she went out to sea. She was simply worn out and during my time she was known as Ghettoprise.

You could argue extra power to the SIF in Trek ships fixes these issues. You can also argue that the shape of the ship really doesn't matter that much since it seems nearly all of the alien ships use similar propulsion tech and they have a radical design to Star fleet ships.
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Re: Starship Lore : Akira Class - A Controversial Warship

Postby bladela » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:08 pm

McAvoy wrote:That is all well understood. Minor refits involving replacing outdated equipment and putting new equipment. But the exterior remains the same. To say that a 100 year old design can be modernized like the Lakota could for example stretches it alot unless you view Trek as having a slow pace of technology revolution but having a steady pace of technology evolution.

I mean, the basic layout of a modern aircraft carrier has remained the same for the past sixty years with the two major changes being the placement of elevators and propulsion. However, that doesn't mean a ship can remain in servo e indefinitely. For example, the Enterprise herself during her last years with the Navy cost hundreds of millions dollars every time she went out to sea. She was simply worn out and during my time she was known as Ghettoprise.

You could argue extra power to the SIF in Trek ships fixes these issues. You can also argue that the shape of the ship really doesn't matter that much since it seems nearly all of the alien ships use similar propulsion tech and they have a radical design to Star fleet ships.


there should also be a cost-benefit analysis before a refit of this type, in the sense, does it cost me more to modernize all the systems of a 50-year-old excelsior or build a new ship?

as much as you can reinforce a hull with SIF or something else it always has 50 or 100 years of life spent, which you can't take away from it.
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Re: Starship Lore : Akira Class - A Controversial Warship

Postby McAvoy » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:14 pm

bladela wrote:
McAvoy wrote:That is all well understood. Minor refits involving replacing outdated equipment and putting new equipment. But the exterior remains the same. To say that a 100 year old design can be modernized like the Lakota could for example stretches it alot unless you view Trek as having a slow pace of technology revolution but having a steady pace of technology evolution.

I mean, the basic layout of a modern aircraft carrier has remained the same for the past sixty years with the two major changes being the placement of elevators and propulsion. However, that doesn't mean a ship can remain in servo e indefinitely. For example, the Enterprise herself during her last years with the Navy cost hundreds of millions dollars every time she went out to sea. She was simply worn out and during my time she was known as Ghettoprise.

You could argue extra power to the SIF in Trek ships fixes these issues. You can also argue that the shape of the ship really doesn't matter that much since it seems nearly all of the alien ships use similar propulsion tech and they have a radical design to Star fleet ships.


there should also be a cost-benefit analysis before a refit of this type, in the sense, does it cost me more to modernize all the systems of a 50-year-old excelsior or build a new ship?

as much as you can reinforce a hull with SIF or something else it always has 50 or 100 years of life spent, which you can't take away from it.


Which is why in the real world the Enterprise was decommissioned and having a new Ford class Enterprise being built. Eventually if spend more time fixing the ship than operating her then it's obvious it's time for her to retire.
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Re: Starship Lore : Akira Class - A Controversial Warship

Postby Graham Kennedy » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:58 pm

It's no different with something like a car. You can have a car that's fifty years old, and still in good running order. But a Starship is a car that's been run hard for much of that fifty years, and has been in a lot of accidents that involved rebuilding part of the car. At some point it's just not practical to run it any more, better to buy a new one.
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