Graham Kennedy wrote:Sonic Glitch wrote:Please note, at no point did I say that the decisions made/actions taken by Admiral Dougherty are reasonable.
Yes, I don't mean reasonable in the sense of do you think he's being reasonable, but rather in the sense of do you think this is really what the writers intended to depict.
If what is said is taken literally, the film depicts the Federation as an aggressive state which conquers those less powerful and subjects them to tyrannical rule. My question is, is this really what the writers were shooting for?
I suppose it does cast a new light on the Federation/Klingon alliance. I had always taken it more or less as a given that this happened because the Klingons gave up on their campaign of conquest and learned to live at least semi-peacefully with their neighbours, thus the Federation felt they could be allies. It seems that the reality may have been more along the lines of the Federation becoming more like the Klingons!I was attempting to demonstrate that there is no contradiction to the planet being "in Federation space," but not a member.
And again, this is something I find stunning. We are to believe now that the apparent conundrum of the Ba'ku planet is that the Federation simply conquered it. I agree it's not a contradiction as such... it's just kind of weird, given how the Federation is generally depicted.I should have phrase that better, I apologize for that. It should say, more accurately, the Federation would claim areas of space with pre-spaceflight planets (and let's be honest, we do certainly see a number of those in the Original Series) and those areas would be part of Federation space.
Well, it certainly does seem to be that way based on Insurrection. So much for the Federation as "good guys", I guess.Have you ever read Prime Directive by the Reeves-Stevens'? The idea I'm trying to emulate is based on the development they write about. For example, if the Baku were a native population on their course through evolution and not the Space Amish, I would see the Federation controlling the sector and monitoring the Baku as they develop. Once the Baku develop warp capability the Federation starts the First Contact process and offers them membership/protectorate status. If they refuse I don't doubt the Federation comes to some sort of mutual agreement about control of the space/protection of the Federation's self-interest. Since the Federation in general is supportive of the right to self-determination, I see the arrangement of non-interference in development but control of the sector until such point as the Prime Directive no longer applies, and then the Federation makes their offer of membership and if refused at least make some attempts at negotiating an agreement or alliance.
In Prime Directive it is established that the Federation keeps a close eye on primitive populations in its sphere of influence, but also holds several sectors "in trust" in a way for theses species to make their colonization efforts as their space programs develop -- essentially making sure nobody else sweeps in and occupies these things before the developing species gets a chance to join the galactic community. For example, if the Federation would observing Earth they would make sure no other governments or private corporations or what have you would sweep in and claim Mars or Jupiter or any of the uninhabited planets or nearby habitable systems (Alpha Centauri for example). I do find it interesting however that in Prime Directive it is the development of Subspace Radio that makes a civilization ready for contact, not warp drive -- I guess it was written before the Warp Drive = Prime Directive No Longer Applies decision was made.
Does this make sense?
Oh yes, and it sounds nice and reasonable, for the most part. But what I'd say is that such a planet would be the equivalent of a present day enclave. Take the most famous example of an enclave, Vatican City. It's completely surrounded by Italy, so it would make sense to refer to it as being "in Italy", and I'm sure Italy has all sorts of agreements and treaties as to how the two relate to one another. And if some invading power wanted to attack the Vatican City, I'm sure Italy would have something to say about it, if only because you'd have to go through Italy to get there.
I can see the Federation being in a similar relationship to a primitive world, where they literally have them "surrounded". And yes, the Federation might monitor their development as they might do to any primitive culture, we've seen that before. And might offer them Federation membership once they hit warp, and if that didn't pan out then then would need to negotiate some sort of right of passage for them to travel through Federation space. All well and good and reasonable.
But this is not what I object to about Insurrection. In Insurrection, Dougherty explicitly states that since it is "in Federation space" it is their planet to do with as they please, no matter what the locals may have to say about it. And what they please is mass abduction by force. It's the equivalent of Italy deciding it really likes that massive pile of artwork the Vatican City has, so one day they just send the army in and grab it all. And the justification is simply "Well why not? Vatican city is in our territory, so it's up to us what happens with it."
Point being, in the normal run of things "it's enclosed by our territory" is NOT the same thing as "it's a Federation planet that belongs to us". But apparently the Federation doesn't see it that way.
Graham .. I think we're on the same side just getting lost in the details. You're Vatican enclave example (the first one) is what I was trying to describe. I too take issue with Dougherty's interpretation and decision and sincerely doubt it was entirely above board as he claimed (lends some credence to the Dougherty is Section 31 theory). That's just my explanation for th, "the planset is in Federation space" line. At no point did I say "the planet is in Federation space and therefore they can do with they want." I don't believe the Federation as it's been explained would operate that way -- certainly the Federation we see in TNG wouldn't. And I doubt that's what the writers of Insurrection intended to portray but we can tally that up to another strike agains the film..