The Hobbit: Battle of The 5 Armies Teaser Trailer

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Re: The Hobbit: Battle of The 5 Armies Teaser Trailer

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Captain Picard's Hair wrote:
Nutso wrote:
Captain Picard's Hair wrote:Ah, I missed that detail in the trailer. When the scene cut from Galadriel tending to Gandalf to Saruman my eye went to Saruman. I guess it's hard to tell since there weren't too many direct showdowns between magical creatures in all this, aside from the Saruman-Gandalf duel and Gandalf's confrontation with Sauron. Gandalf is mainly featured as the wise mentor to first Bilbo then Frodo (just a mentor who happens to have great magical powers), and the elf leaders less prominently featured wise beings also. In particular the magical abilities of Elf vs Wizard wasn't fully detailed in the material I've seen.
I just remember that Galadriel in Fellowship did this speech to Frodo where she was radiating light. This thing all shall love and despair. And it looks like she, ELrond and Saruman are coming to fight Sauron and save Gandalf. She seemed to be a thing of power when she was scaring Frodo, but she's beaten in the trailer, and then Saruman is real confident looks like he put himself between Sauron and Elrond/Galadriel.

I take it this doesn't happen in the book?
A lot of what's in the Hobbit movies wasn't in the book. Some of the material seems to have been drawn from the supplemental material Tolkein later published (which I haven't read) but a lot also embellished by the film producers. It's inferred that the elf leaders have some magical ability but exactly how it compares to those of wizards really isn't a focus here, as it's not relevant to the plot. Maybe it's addressed in some of that supplemental work.
Thanks for indulging me, CPH. Cheers. :)
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Re: The Hobbit: Battle of The 5 Armies Teaser Trailer

Post by Mikey »

Nutso wrote:Is Saruman more powerful than Galadriel? In the trailer above, it looks like Galdriel was wounded before Saruman commands, "Leave Sauron to me."
It's a weird distinction in the universe of Middle-Earth, but think about it this way: Galadriel was teh daughter of Finarfin and the granddaughter of Finwe, first High King of the Noldor. As such, she was equal in power to (or near enough to make no difference) elves such as Feanor - who wrought the Silmarils - or Celembrimbor, who created the rings of power. However, even as a mighty queen of the Noldor, she was "just" an Eldar; beings such as the wizards including both Gandalf and Saruman were Maiar, the equivalent of demigods or angels - attendant spirits to the Valar, the deities of Middle-Earth.

Things get muddy here, though. Not all Maiar are equal in power, as even Gandalf considered Saruman to be "the greatest of our order," over and above the other four wizards. Also, none of the five wizards seemed to be a straight-up match for Sauron, who was also a Maiar of Morgoth. Gandalf also treated Elrond - himself a descendant of the great Earendil - and Galadriel as nothing less than peers. Even stranger, according to some very early sketch-writings by Tolkien, the great final battle against Morgoth will only be won with the help of Turin Turambar, a (get this) mortal man who would be released from the Doom of Men in order to stand by Tulkas, without whom the fight against Morgoth seems destined to be lost.

So, there's power and there's power, and deciding who is more powerful than whom seems to be a matter of what happens to be going on at the moment.
RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:1. Three movies. No. It's one fairly short book. At best, two. But not three!
That's because of all the extra crap that they've been stuffing into the films to make the LotR tie-ins mind-numbingly obvious (see your point 3, above.)
RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:2. it's all so serious! The Hobbit, IIRC, wasn't as grim as these movies.
Really? The movies that have Sylvester McCoy wearing bird shit, blowing smoke out of his ears, and driving a rabbit-drawn sledge are too serious?
RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:3. Tying it into LOTR. I know it was turned into a prequel by stuff in LOTR and addendums and whatnot, but the book wasn't. It's padding.
It's worse than padding. Part of the artistry of Tolkien is the fact that the view of the background - from The Hobbit through to the backstory of LotR, from LotR through to the supporting backstory of The Silmarillion, the Doom of Turin, the coming of the Edain, etc., etc. - is organic, natural, and unforced. The artificial tie-ins that were shoehorned into the Hobbit films are the complete antithesis of that - they are clumsy, obvious, out of place, and unnecessary.
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Re: The Hobbit: Battle of The 5 Armies Teaser Trailer

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Mikey wrote:Even stranger, according to some very early sketch-writings by Tolkien, the great final battle against Morgoth will only be won with the help of Turin Turambar, a (get this) mortal man who would be released from the Doom of Men in order to stand by Tulkas, without whom the fight against Morgoth seems destined to be lost.
Would this be an allegory for Jesus Christ? Turin led me to think of The Shroud of Turin.
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Re: The Hobbit: Battle of The 5 Armies Teaser Trailer

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Mikey wrote:beings such as the wizards including both Gandalf and Saruman were Maiar, the equivalent of demigods or angels - attendant spirits to the Valar, the deities of Middle-Earth.
I've always considered the Valar as roughly equivalent to the Archangels rather than gods, given the existence of Eru.
Not all Maiar are equal in power, as even Gandalf considered Saruman to be "the greatest of our order," over and above the other four wizards.
I think that was just Gandalf being modest and/or paying due respect to the appointed leader of the Istari. Cirdan certainly disagreed with the notion, and considered Gandalf the greatest of them, which was why he gave him Narya. This is supported to an extent by the fact that Olorin was reportedly chosen for the expedition for Manwe, and by the fact that Tolkien raises the possibility (albeit one he immediately dismisses) that he was Manwe.
Also, none of the five wizards seemed to be a straight-up match for Sauron, who was also a Maiar of Morgoth.
Sauruman was explicitly stated and shown to be weaker than Sauron, but Gandalf is a slightly different case. It's never clear whether he refuses to engage head-on because he'll lose, because he'd win but become a worse menace in the process, or because his orders were to provide encouragement, support and advice, rather than do the fighting. As the Grey he was an even match for one of the lesser Balrogs, which implies that he was significantly weaker than Sauron at the time, but as the White he was strong enough to hold off Sauron in a mental shoving contest when Frodo put on the ring on the summit of Amon Hen.
Gandalf also treated Elrond - himself a descendant of the great Earendil - and Galadriel as nothing less than peers.
Nitpick: Elrond wasn't just descended from Earendil - he was his son.
Nutso wrote:Would this be an allegory for Jesus Christ? Turin led me to think of The Shroud of Turin.
Highly unlikely - this is Tolkien we're talking about, not C S Lewis.
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Re: The Hobbit: Battle of The 5 Armies Teaser Trailer

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Nutso wrote:Would this be an allegory for Jesus Christ? Turin led me to think of The Shroud of Turin.
No, it wouldn't. #1 - Recall that Turin is just the name of a city, and isn't of itself a reference to Jesus. #2 - The naming is simply coincidental; Tolkien was a philologist and linguist by trade, and had his own very detailed languages and derivations in place in his Middle-Earth milieu. The name "Turin" simply followed the linguistic conventions of the fictional language of the Edain, and was probably simply narrowed down because it rhymes with "Hurin," another hero of the First Age and father of Turin. #3 - The seemign resurrection, or indemnification from the Doom of Men, of Turin may seem to parallel the story of Jesus but I personally believe that it comes more from ancient Germanic/Anglic pagan mythology - the beliefs of the forebears of much of England - as does so much in LotR. That is, based on Tolkien's proven tendencies, I'd compare the apocalyptic Turambar story with that of the fallen of Valhalla rising to fight in Ragnarok more than I'd compare it with the story of J.C.
Captain Seafort wrote:I've always considered the Valar as roughly equivalent to the Archangels rather than gods, given the existence of Eru.
Fair point, but given the hands-off (read: complete absence) attitude of Eru since the creation of Ea - and considering the Ainur's necessary inclusion in the creation process - I'd consider the Valar more of non-omnipotent deities, in the manner of the Olympians or such.
Captain Seafort wrote:Cirdan certainly disagreed with the notion, and considered Gandalf the greatest of them, which was why he gave him Narya.
An analysis of Cirdan's opinions must be tempered with the fact of his steadfast desire to do nothing most of the time, no matter his legacy, ability, and knowledge of what was happening around him. I believe his decision to give Narya to Olorin had more to do with Cirdan's knowledge of Olorin's intentions contrasted with Curunir's, not with Olorin's standing in the heirarchy of the Istari. I believe Cirdan even said something to the effect of giving the ring to Olorin because Olorin would need its fire and energy, not because Olorin "deserved" it.
Captain Seafort wrote: This is supported to an extent by the fact that Olorin was reportedly chosen for the expedition for Manwe, and by the fact that Tolkien raises the possibility (albeit one he immediately dismisses) that he was Manwe.
As I've read, Olorin was chosen for the expedition because he was a Maiar of Manwe, and thus was Manwe's to ask/command to take on the expedition. Curunir couldn't have been chosen to undertake the task set by Manwe simply because he was a maiar of Aule, not of Manwe.
Captain Seafort wrote:Sauruman was explicitly stated and shown to be weaker than Sauron, but Gandalf is a slightly different case. It's never clear whether he refuses to engage head-on because he'll lose, because he'd win but become a worse menace in the process, or because his orders were to provide encouragement, support and advice, rather than do the fighting. As the Grey he was an even match for one of the lesser Balrogs, which implies that he was significantly weaker than Sauron at the time, but as the White he was strong enough to hold off Sauron in a mental shoving contest when Frodo put on the ring on the summit of Amon Hen.
I'll admit that my stance on this point is conjecture, but...
Don't take a comparison based on the fight with the balrog to heart. Ecthelion of the Fountain slew a greater balrog, as did the original incarnation of Glorfindel, and both of them were "mere" Eldar. The fact that Gandalf struggled so mightily with a lesser balrog is certainly a conundrum, given the prior fact, but I can't believe it truly speaks to the comparative power of a Maiar - no matter how long that Maiar has been shackled in the form of mankind and wandering around the lands of the east. Also, remember the fear Sauron inspired in Olorin when he was barely reformed and inhabiting Dol Guldur. Finally, compare the influence Sauron was able to exert on the mighty kings of Numenor, while Olorin wasn't able to debate succesfully with one debased and cracked steward of a degenerated line of the Dunedain.
Captain Seafort wrote:Nitpick: Elrond wasn't just descended from Earendil - he was his son.
Yes, of course, I wasn't thinking. It's a bit of a funny concept, because so many generations had passed from when Elros founded the line of Numenor, yet there's Elrond who didn't accept the gift still hanging around.
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Re: The Hobbit: Battle of The 5 Armies Teaser Trailer

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BTW, as I'm thinking about the point above referencing various folks who defeated balrogs, is there something more than coincidental to this:

- Gandalf fought and defeated a balrog. In the process, he was himself defeated/incapacited/killed (inasmuch as a being not subject to death can be killed,) and was returned/reborn to greater standing and power.
- Glorfindel fought and defeated a balrog during the siege of Gondolin. Glorfindel died in the process; however, he was also not subject to the Doom of Men, and was apparently somehow reborn to Middle-Earth because he was a (supernaturally powerful) retainer of Elrond in The Fellowship of the Ring. I do confidently assume that it was the same Glorfindel reborn because the Eldar never re-use a name and because of the eminently supernatural characteristics he exhibited. Recall that in "The Cottage of Lost Play" it was remarked that there was a pathway from the lands of the living to the halls of Mandos, and the presumably it was a two-way path on a very rare occassion.
- It could be argued (although admittedly in an extremely tenuous and circumstantial manner) that Ecthelion (the Noldor of Gondolin, not the steward of Gondor) who also died while defeated a balrog was reborn in a similar manner among the Green-elves of Ossiriand.
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Re: The Hobbit: Battle of The 5 Armies Teaser Trailer

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Sorry to bring up a somewhat old thread but I was reflecting on a scene in this last Hobbit film.
In Desolation of Smaug, Gandalf discovers the spirit of Sauron in Dol Guldur. He loses a magical battle with Sauron and is imprisoned. It was obvious that he would have to be rescued in the last film though the way it happens is interesting. A collection of magical figures comes to his aid, including Saruman, Elrond and Radagast. Yet, before Saruman targets Sauron with the line in the trailer "Leave Sauron to me!" it was Galadriel who drives Sauron into hiding again. There are a few things to note: most important that the Ring was still hidden (at least to Sauron). It's not clear to me that this "proves" Galadriel is as or more powerful than Gandalf, though. In the aftermath of this confrontation Galadriel is visibly weakened; I would apply this same idea to the earlier battle between Gandalf and Sauron. That is, Sauron may have only defeated Gandalf at a certain cost to his own power. Perhaps Sauron was "tired" in a certain sense, and lacked the strength to confront Galadriel. We also know that Galadriel holds one of the three rings gifted to the race of Elves, which can only enhance her powers.
In more general terms, I find it notable how little magic is invoked in the original materials. Clearly it's not a focal point of the plot, as an OOU perspective. Nevertheless, there are times Gandalf restrains from intervening magically when he might be able to do more. Take the Battle of Minas Tirith. Gandalf takes a strong role in leading the army of Gondor but (at least in the film, as my memory of the books isn't as strong) doesn't use magic to confront the Nazgul terrorizing soldiers or assist in other ways.
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Re: The Hobbit: Battle of The 5 Armies Teaser Trailer

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Captain Picard's Hair wrote:In more general terms, I find it notable how little magic is invoked in the original materials. Clearly it's not a focal point of the plot, as an OOU perspective. Nevertheless, there are times Gandalf restrains from intervening magically when he might be able to do more. Take the Battle of Minas Tirith. Gandalf takes a strong role in leading the army of Gondor but (at least in the film, as my memory of the books isn't as strong) doesn't use magic to confront the Nazgul terrorizing soldiers or assist in other ways.
Most of the magic invoked in Tolkein's work is mental - in the case of Minas Tirith, there's a passage that describes Gandalf's very presence as strengthening the will of the garrison to stand against the Witch-King's army. Not surprising, given that Cirdan described Narya's power as "to rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill".
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Re: The Hobbit: Battle of The 5 Armies Teaser Trailer

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Well then that's fair I guess. The battle scene in Return of the King (film) shows Gandalf encouraging the battalion to fight and the men do seem to respond to it. As I indicated my memory of the books isn't as good as the films.
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Re: The Hobbit: Battle of The 5 Armies Teaser Trailer

Post by Mikey »

Captain Picard's Hair wrote:
the Ring was still hidden (at least to Sauron).
The location of the Ring was hidden; but Sauron aka the Necromancer was fully aware of its resurgence in general terms, as he had the greatest of the Dwarven rings in his posession since taking it from Thrain II.
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Re: The Hobbit: Battle of The 5 Armies Teaser Trailer

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Mikey wrote:
Captain Picard's Hair wrote:
the Ring was still hidden (at least to Sauron).
The location of the Ring was hidden; but Sauron aka the Necromancer was fully aware of its resurgence in general terms, as he had the greatest of the Dwarven rings in his posession since taking it from Thrain II.
Again I'll have to defer to superior topical knowledge. In any case, Sauron didn't have possession of the one Ring (it's implied he'd be all but unstoppable with it)
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Re: The Hobbit: Battle of The 5 Armies Teaser Trailer

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Captain Seafort wrote:Most of the magic invoked in Tolkein's work is mental - in the case of Minas Tirith, there's a passage that describes Gandalf's very presence as strengthening the will of the garrison to stand against the Witch-King's army. Not surprising, given that Cirdan described Narya's power as "to rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill".
Now as I'm re-watching Fellowship of the Ring, this came to mind. Perhaps in a sense Gandalf was most powerful after all. Saruman had great magical ability but it's shown that he was under the influence of Sauron's will by this time. One thing that was constant about Gandalf was his steadfast resolve.
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Re: The Hobbit: Battle of The 5 Armies Teaser Trailer

Post by Mikey »

I think one of the most confounding translations into English from Tolkien is that of Istari as "wizards." While Gandalf certainly could (and did) cast spells like many another fantasy fiction sorcerer - such as the pine-cone incendiaries or his light-source trick - the role and source of power of the Istari was patently different from simple erudition and connection with outre mystic energy. The Istari were Maiar, attendant spirits to the Valar and powerful demigods in their own right... in essence, to put it into a Judeo-Christian verbiage, they were archangels to the pantheon of gods in Tolkien's universe. Thus, while they could (for example) create fireworks or converse with animals, their true "magic" power was much more subtle and much more in keeping with the nature of the target/victim.
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