Man of steel (spoilers)

[McAvoy]

Me thinks the Christopher Reeves Superman movies is only the one being compared. Which is unfair really. Back then they had a hard time even making him fly look real.

[Graham Kennedy]

One issue I had with it is that we never really establish the 'rules' for Superpowered fighting. Ian and I were talking about this before the film - just how vulnerable is one powered-up Kryptonian to an attack by another? It's almost the classic 'irresistable force versus immoveable object' scenario. Throughout the whole of the last act Super people punch, kick and otherwise knock the hell out of one another, and not one of them displays any sign of pain or injury from it. I was left thinking that the fighting is kind of pointless because it's impossible for them to actually do any damage to one another. And then, at the end, Superman just snaps Zod's neck as if it's nothing. So my first thought is 'Oh... so I guess they can hurt one another then. Wonder why none of them tried anything like that before?'

IMO, it really needed to do something to establish the power levels here before that climactic fight. Like showing that smashing into a steel door does nothing, but a fist to the face leaves bruises and blood because super-fists are just that tough. Or kill one of the Kryptonians in one of the early fights. Do SOMETHING to clue the audience in that there is actually the possibility of damage here. Without that it felt like cartoon violence, all show and no consequence, right up until the last second.

[McAvoy]

It seemed to me that punches do knock them around like how Superman was getting beat up in Kansas by the two Kryptonians. But it seems that nothing can pierce the skin.

It appeared to me there was some effort in snapping Zod's neck. It also looked like Superman can in fact choke out Zod too.

Superman's costume is invulnerable too.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Me thinks the Christopher Reeves Superman movies is only the one being compared. Which is unfair really. Back then they had a hard time even making him fly look real.

And about 90% of it was Christopher Reeves' tremendous acting ability.

[LaughingCheese]

One issue I had with it is that we never really establish the 'rules' for Superpowered fighting. Ian and I were talking about this before the film - just how vulnerable is one powered-up Kryptonian to an attack by another? It's almost the classic 'irresistable force versus immoveable object' scenario. Throughout the whole of the last act Super people punch, kick and otherwise knock the hell out of one another, and not one of them displays any sign of pain or injury from it. I was left thinking that the fighting is kind of pointless because it's impossible for them to actually do any damage to one another. And then, at the end, Superman just snaps Zod's neck as if it's nothing. So my first thought is 'Oh... so I guess they can hurt one another then. Wonder why none of them tried anything like that before?'

Er, seriously? You expect RULES from a comic book movie?

IMO, it really needed to do something to establish the power levels here before that climactic fight. Like showing that smashing into a steel door does nothing, but a fist to the face leaves bruises and blood because super-fists are just that tough. Or kill one of the Kryptonians in one of the early fights. Do SOMETHING to clue the audience in that there is actually the possibility of damage here. Without that it felt like cartoon violence, all show and no consequence, right up until the last second.

ITS OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



(Sorry, couldn't resist. )



Jesting aside, saw it again today.

Something I still don't get; the scout ship landed on earth 20,000 years ago but it was designed by Jor El, but he didn't launch his son 20,000 years ago, he launched it 33 years ago, that was made pretty clear.

Are Kryptonians immortal??

No wonder they ran out of resources....also, if you're immortal (ish, but you still need resources[so Kryptonians are space elves?]), how dumb can you be and still breathe, and not think to expand??

Since this is the DC universe maybe they ran into things far more powerful than themselves?

Or are they splitting up the franchises into their own universe? But then, how can they do a Justice League movie without the main characters?? (Which are IIRC Batman, Superman, Green Lantern etc, I don't read the comics so I'm bound to get some details wrong).

[IanKennedy]

Superman's costume is invulnerable too.

How can it be in this movie. He gets his strength from breathing Earth's atmosphere, that is clearly stated. His costume doesn't breath.

[IanKennedy]

Me thinks the Christopher Reeves Superman movies is only the one being compared. Which is unfair really. Back then they had a hard time even making him fly look real.

Given this is an almost direct copy of those movies then I can't see why that is a) a surprise and b) a problem. After all origin from number 1 and Zod etc from number 2.

As for those films and him flying, they where extremely proud of how they did the special effects of him flying. The tag line for Superman (I) was "You will believe a man can fly". Just because special effects have moved on today doesn't actually change much. It's not about the special effects, it's about the qualities of the character of Superman. He actually gives a damn about people, Hope Boy here doesn't. I honestly don't think the people of Metropolis are going to come out of this movie thanking him for saving them, more likely hating him for causing a lot of the destruction himself. 911 has left a lasting scare on the US, for good reason. The events of this movie are about 1,000 fold more than that. Not only did more than half of Metropolis end up in ruins a good proportion of south east Asia suffered too.

[LaughingCheese]

Me thinks the Christopher Reeves Superman movies is only the one being compared. Which is unfair really. Back then they had a hard time even making him fly look real.

Given this is an almost direct copy of those movies then I can't see why that is a) a surprise and b) a problem. After all origin from number 1 and Zod etc from number 2.

As for those films and him flying, they where extremely proud of how they did the special effects of him flying. The tag line for Superman (I) was "You will believe a man can fly". Just because special effects have moved on today doesn't actually change much. It's not about the special effects, it's about the qualities of the character of Superman. He actually gives a damn about people, Hope Boy here doesn't. I honestly don't think the people of Metropolis are going to come out of this movie thanking him for saving them, more likely hating him for causing a lot of the destruction himself. 911 has left a lasting scare on the US, for good reason. The events of this movie are about 1,000 fold more than that. Not only did more than half of Metropolis end up in ruins a good proportion of south east Asia suffered too.

I don't know that he doesn't care, but as has been stated, this superman isn't someone whose perfect. It IS also his first time, as has been stated.....


I think the heart of this issue is the comics and cartoons portrayed events where seemingly no one ever died; buildings fell in chunks and Superman was able to catch them and put them down.

This is a realistic Superman, he simply can't carry a building like that.

(Its been a while since I've seen the cartoons, and when I did watch them I think I mostly watched the New Adventures of Superman or something, its been a while.)

It isn't that he doesn't care, its that he simply can't save everyone (yes, Jor El said he could save them all, obviously he meant us as a species and wasn't talking about collateral).


He can't be in more than one place at a time. It just. Isn't. Possible, for him to save EVERYONE.



He's extremely powerful yes, but at the end of the day he isn't God, he's not perfect. He can only do his best to see that these calamities are as short as possible.


I mean, if he had left the city to draw them away, do you think this version of Zod would be fooled? Maybe one or two of them would be sent to deal with him, while the rest continue with their plan. Or maybe not.

[IanKennedy]

I don't know that he doesn't care, but as has been stated, this superman isn't someone whose perfect. It IS also his first time, as has been stated.....

If he isn't perfect they he isn't Superman. Sorry, for me that is inherent in everything I know about him.

I think the heart of this issue is the comics and cartoons portrayed events where seemingly no one ever died; buildings fell in chunks and Superman was able to catch them and put them down.

This is a realistic Superman, he simply can't carry a building like that.

That's exactly the point. This version of Superman is inherently weaker than others that we have seen before. Realism and Superman's powers are not a good match at all. If he can't do these things then we need a new name for him. As I've said previously "Hope Boy" would be perfect. It's useless to call him Superman as he can't do the things that Superman can and he doesn't want to protect the humans like Superman does.

He can't be in more than one place at a time. It just. Isn't. Possible, for him to save EVERYONE.

Funny you should say that. In Superman I (Reeves) was given exactly that choice. Lois died because of it. Superman then did something that proves the capabilities that this man has. He rewound time and saved Lois anyway. Superman isn't like any other 'human' super hero you have ever come across, he's far more powerful. Forget Batman, on the scale of Superman he's a joke. He would have nothing to do in a team with Superman except look moody and sit in the corner sulking. Superman is so fast he could do everything required before Batman even knew there was anything that needed doing.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Well, Ian, sorry, but Superman's never been perfect, even in the Reeves movies.

[McAvoy]

Well, Ian, sorry, but Superman's never been perfect, even in the Reeves movies.

Exactly.

Anyone remember the battle where Superman died when he fought Doomsday? Yeah they wrecked a lot of the city then too.


This new Superman has to be realistic because when two super powered beings like that fought there will be damage. Lots of it.

This Superman does care about humans and saving them. But the stakes were to high for him to worry about them when he was fighting someone as powerful as he was but doesn't care about the humans. In fact Zod even said he will kill all humans.

[stitch626]

This is also not based at all on the movies from before, but on the Year 1 comic series.

Also, rumor is that this Superman, the Green Lantern movie, and the Batman movies will not be related to the Justice League. Seems they want to reboot everything for that.

[Graham Kennedy]

Well, Ian, sorry, but Superman's never been perfect, even in the Reeves movies.

Exactly.

Anyone remember the battle where Superman died when he fought Doomsday? Yeah they wrecked a lot of the city then too.


This new Superman has to be realistic because when two super powered beings like that fought there will be damage. Lots of it.

This Superman does care about humans and saving them. But the stakes were to high for him to worry about them when he was fighting someone as powerful as he was but doesn't care about the humans. In fact Zod even said he will kill all humans.

I don't mind there being damage. I mind that nobody so much as bothered to comment on the fact that there was damage. In Superman 2 there was damage and they made a point of it - Superman tried to prevent it, the bad guys identified it as his weakness and played on it, and Superman then retreated because of it. In this film Superman was apparently completely indifferent to the damage... up until Zod threatened that one family at the end and then suddenly he's all "Noooo, don't do it!" Why wasn't his response a shrug and "well what can you expect, when people like us fight there's gonna be a lot of death and destruction." Because that's what his attitude was up until then.

Incidentally somebody has done an approximation of the amount of damage done in the film. In short...

[McAvoy]

Keep in mind that majority of that damage came from the two gravity pounding ships thingie.

Problem with that fight is that he really didn't have an opportunity to prevent anything. He couldn't stop and help people because Zod was out of control at that point. It was better for Superman to fight Zod and hope that the humans would be smart enough to go away as far as possible from the fight.

Superman couldn't really prevent that while at the same time fight Zod. Also remember that in Superman 2, the fight was very limited.

[Tsukiyumi]

I think people tend to forget that there have been a number of incarnations of Superman. Golden Age, Silver Age, etc. His powers have always fluctuated wildly in the comics, and the Reeves movies. Sometimes he's strong enough to pull a planet through space unaided, and other times high-caliber bullets can knock him around. Some incarnations of Superman can't even fly; he just jumps reeeeeeally far. They explained all of this by introducing the multiple universe concept quite a while ago.