The Hobbit

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Re: The Hobbit

Post by Tholian_Avenger »

Gimli's was related to Balin. The last news he had heard, that presumably all Dwarves had heard, was that Moria had been left with only a few goblins/orcs and sometime after their victory at Erebor, Balin led a Dwarf company to reclaim Moria. Likely Gimli thought the Dwarves had busied themselves putting Moria back into shape and were simply negligent in sending any messages. Gimli would have also spent some time traveling to have reached the Council of Elrond, so he could not have been expected to hear the latest news if indeed any messengers were sent.

So when he found Moria a darkened charnel house for his relatives, infested with goblins/orcs he was understandably shaken.
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Re: The Hobbit

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Spoilers following from the book.

The Hobbit cover the Dwarves journey to recover the kingdom under the mountain in the north of middle earth.

In the Hobbit movie it shows a battle outside the gates of Moria between the Dwarves and Orcs, this is after they were chased away by the Dragon but before the story of the hobbit, Basically they tried to retake Moria after the dragon chased them away from the mountain but they lost to many dwarves to pull it off.

Then they manage to reclaim the kingdom under the mountain during the story of the Hobbit, After a few decades of peace and prosperity they want another shot at Moria so Balin (from the Hobbit) takes a buynch of Dwarves and reclaims it a few decades after the Hobbit but about 15 years before LOTR. Thye colony last about 3 yeasr and goes well even mining Mithril before the Balrog curb stomps them again.

In latter writings it is said they eventually do re take it in the forth age after the events of LOTR. So the Dwarven communities are the Lonely mountain, the blue mountains, the iron hills, the glittering caves (in Rohan founded by Gimli) and finally reclaiming Moria.
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Re: The Hobbit

Post by Tholian_Avenger »

The Dwarves really did a lot to take the momentum out of Sauron's plans in the North. Imagine Sauron, Saruman, Smaug, and the Balrog teaming up.
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Re: The Hobbit

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And a full army of Orcs living in the Misty mountains, everyone owes them for taking them out.
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Re: The Hobbit

Post by Jim »

The Balrog would have been their #1 weapon by far.
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Re: The Hobbit

Post by Teaos »

I think I would of prefered the Dragon, Highly mobile, able to strike anywhere quickly and from a distance, almost 100% impervious against attack (and I'm sure Sauron could fix that problem)

The balrog is strong... but we know it can be killed, it is fairly slow and can really only fight small number at once.

Also A Balrog is Maia like Sauron, Considering Sauron has had his power greatly diminished by the loss of the Ring the Balrog could challenge him for the title of top dog.
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Re: The Hobbit

Post by Tholian_Avenger »

Teaos wrote:And a full army of Orcs living in the Misty mountains, everyone owes them for taking them out.
Exactly, and more! :) There would have been a veritable nation of goblins and orcs stretched across the Misty Mountains, with several strongholds and several leaders.
Teaos wrote:Also A Balrog is Maia like Sauron, Considering Sauron has had his power greatly diminished by the loss of the Ring the Balrog could challenge him for the title of top dog.
Three good points!
The Balrog may have even fled right after Sauron came pleading repentance to Eönwë, and thus could view Sauron as a traitor to Melkor. Perhaps there could have been some lingering animosity even between the Balrogs and other servants of Melkor?
If they had renewed that old alliance though, what a boon it would have been to have a powerful Maia (less than Sauron I think) between Rivendell and Lorien?
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Re: The Hobbit

Post by Teaos »

There are so many great what is senarios in Tolkeins world.

What if he got the Dragon or Balrog?

Whats if the Kingdom of Arnor hadnt split in three and then been wiped out by Angmar?

What if the One ring had really been destroyed at the end of the second age? Would the elves still be around now or would they have left sooner since the three elf rings would have lost there power?

What if the Dwarves hadnt lost the lonely mountain or Moria and had the full might of a powerful kingdom rather than ragtag settlements?

What if Sarmuman hadnt difected?
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Re: The Hobbit

Post by RK_Striker_JK_5 »

Rather glad to read that there's more dwarves out there than just Gimli by the time of LOTR. ;)
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Re: The Hobbit

Post by Mikey »

What if Menegroth hadn't been attacked by the Dwarves of Nogrod?

What if Numenor hadn't defied the Ban of the Valar?

What if the other two Istari had remained in Eriador?

etc., etc.

I'm just back after a while and sorry for not having read the entirety of every forum since I was here last; but has anyone mentioned that Radagast is played by Sylvester friggin' McCoy?!
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Re: The Hobbit

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I dont think the other 2 istari staying in the west would have done a hell of a lot, they probably did more good in the east. Maybe they should have kept in touch, but who knows if they did talk to Gandalf once or twice, he did seem to know a lot.

The Dwarves not attacking Menegroth... probably would of put off the War of the Wraith by maybe a hundred years, but it was bound to happen sooner or latter and shit sould have gone just as bad, when Morgoth let lose the winged Dragons on Beleriland most of it would have been burnt to a cinder.

Numenor... well even before Sauron corrupted them totally they were turning into more warlord type people. So yeah, there would have been a race of super men ruling over lesser men... not a great future.

Numenor was a shit idea from the start but its mostly the Valars fault. First they dont finish the job of killing Sauron, a being heads and shoulders above anything any Man should ever have to deal with. Then they flaunt their paradise island of immortality with in sight of Numenor. A better gift would have been the longer life span and greater depth of knowledge, but leave them in middle earth and do a proper job cleaning it of Morgoths monsters.
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Re: The Hobbit

Post by Mikey »

Teaos wrote:I dont think the other 2 istari staying in the west would have done a hell of a lot, they probably did more good in the east. Maybe they should have kept in touch, but who knows if they did talk to Gandalf once or twice, he did seem to know a lot.
Theyn didn't seem to do much where they were, considering both the independent attacks of the Wainriders on the Rhovannion and the fact that almost all the Easterlings fought for Sauron after the establishment of Mordor.
Teaos wrote:The Dwarves not attacking Menegroth... probably would of put off the War of the Wraith by maybe a hundred years, but it was bound to happen sooner or latter and shit sould have gone just as bad, when Morgoth let lose the winged Dragons on Beleriland most of it would have been burnt to a cinder.
IDK, even afterward Galadriel - a Noldorin exile herself - was able to build a great friendship between Eregion and Khazad-Dum; the enmity of the Sindar (misplaced as it was) for the Dwarves would have been non-existent. As far as dragons; remember that the host of Belegost were the only ones on the field out of all the League of Maedhros who could stand (even prevail, if not kill) against Glaurung in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
Teaos wrote:Numenor... well even before Sauron corrupted them totally they were turning into more warlord type people. So yeah, there would have been a race of super men ruling over lesser men... not a great future.
Recall that the first moves of enmity were the attacks on Vinyalonde/Lond Daer by the Middle Men against the Dunedain, not vice verse. And in the letter from Gil-galad to Tar-Meneldur, it was revealed that Lindon and Aldarion all noticed the presence of evil - if not yet able to positively identify it as Sauron - making moves toward Eriador, well before the division on Numenor or any thoughts of conquest or sailing to the West. I don't think it can be said that anything was changing in Numenor before Sauron re-awoke.
Teaos wrote:Numenor was a shit idea from the start but its mostly the Valars fault. First they dont finish the job of killing Sauron, a being heads and shoulders above anything any Man should ever have to deal with. Then they flaunt their paradise island of immortality with in sight of Numenor. A better gift would have been the longer life span and greater depth of knowledge, but leave them in middle earth and do a proper job cleaning it of Morgoths monsters.
Numenor was barely in sight of Aquallonde on Tol Erresea, but not of the rest of the Undying Lands. Be that as it may, I agree it was a band-aid measure; I have always gotten the impression that the Valar - Mandos be damned - got thrown a curve ball by the union and descendants of Tuor and Idril, and further by the decision of Elros to accept the Doom of Men, and without knowing what to do said, "Er... umm... let's put 'em on this island here."
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Re: The Hobbit

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Mikey wrote:Theyn didn't seem to do much where they were, considering both the independent attacks of the Wainriders on the Rhovannion and the fact that almost all the Easterlings fought for Sauron after the establishment of Mordor.
Tolkien in 1958
I really do not know anything clearly about the other two [wizards] – since they do not concern the history of the N[orth].W[est]. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.
They did akay for themselves, hell considering the west had three Wizards but they still allowed Angmar to rise and wipe out one of the great kingoms of men. I'd say the two Blue ones did okay for themselves. Who knows what they did there. We know there are 5 more tribes of Dwarves somewhere out there and also the Dark elves that never followed the Valar.
IDK, even afterward Galadriel - a Noldorin exile herself - was able to build a great friendship between Eregion and Khazad-Dum; the enmity of the Sindar (misplaced as it was) for the Dwarves would have been non-existent. As far as dragons; remember that the host of Belegost were the only ones on the field out of all the League of Maedhros who could stand (even prevail, if not kill) against Glaurung in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
Maybe, but the winged Dragons were supposed to be so badarse they actually drove back the hosts of the Valar, I just cant see the Noldor, Sindar, Dwarves and Men of Belleriland fighting them.
Recall that the first moves of enmity were the attacks on Vinyalonde/Lond Daer by the Middle Men against the Dunedain, not vice verse. And in the letter from Gil-galad to Tar-Meneldur, it was revealed that Lindon and Aldarion all noticed the presence of evil - if not yet able to positively identify it as Sauron - making moves toward Eriador, well before the division on Numenor or any thoughts of conquest or sailing to the West. I don't think it can be said that anything was changing in Numenor before Sauron re-awoke.
It is said that the Kings were more worried about their own mortality than their people, that they cursed Elros' choice. They turned their back on the wisdom and friendship of the Eldar.
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Re: The Hobbit

Post by Mikey »

Teaos wrote:They did akay for themselves, hell considering the west had three Wizards but they still allowed Angmar to rise and wipe out one of the great kingoms of men. I'd say the two Blue ones did okay for themselves. Who knows what they did there. We know there are 5 more tribes of Dwarves somewhere out there and also the Dark elves that never followed the Valar.
We can only judge by the effects that were seen in Eriador. The fact that the Wainriders troubled the Rhovannion enough to make the Eorlingas move south, as well as being a direct threat to Gondor, is one effect; another is the fact that the Variags, the men of Rhun, and the descendants of the Wainriders all served Mordor. If the blue Istari were successful, these things wouldn't have happened.

As far as the five more Dwarf clans... that could be more evidence that Allatar and Palando weren't successful, because at least two of the eastern Dwarf clans fell to Shadow, at the very least trafficking with Orcs and trading with Mordor.

As far as the Umanyari... it's very tough to say that any remaining in the East would have done anything at all either way. We know that the Laiquendi did nothing, even in the First Age in Beleriand, save hide and ignore the Sindar and Noldor except hide Beren and Luthien. The Nandor of Lothlorien and Greenwood did nothing at all until Galadriel and Celeborn took over; and soon after that, when Eregion fell, they still did nothing except hide a ring. Were there other tribes of Moriquendi hanging out somewhere? It's possible, though I don't think anyone knows where Cuivenen lay; but it's very tough to say that they did anything useful due to Allatar's and Palando's efforts, nor that they would have done anything anyway.
Teaos wrote:Maybe, but the winged Dragons were supposed to be so badarse they actually drove back the hosts of the Valar, I just cant see the Noldor, Sindar, Dwarves and Men of Belleriland fighting them.
Glaurung was the Father of Dragons, and single-handedly overthrew Finrod and all of Nargothrond as well as completely emptying the plain of Sirion right up to Teiglin and the borders of Brethil and Doriath. Wings or no, there was no dragon more "badarse" than him... and the Dwarves of Belegost wounded him and drove him from the field at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad - even when all the Noldor of the League of Maedhros, along with the first two houses of the Edain, ran away from him like frail schoolgirls.
Teaos wrote:It is said that the Kings were more worried about their own mortality than their people, that they cursed Elros' choice. They turned their back on the wisdom and friendship of the Eldar.
This is true - but you're underestimating the timing of Sauron's influence. Sauron was perceived in nature, if not in identity, by Gil-galad as mentioned in a letter he sent to Tar-Meneldur - who was only the fourth king over Numenor (he was the fifth king in name, but the second - Vardamir - never sat in office, resigning the scepter to his son as soon as Elros resigned it to him.) In fact, Gil-galad's fears were the reason behind the establishment of Vinyalonde. Since this letter was delayed by about a decade due to the travels of Aldarion, it's about right to suggest that Sauron's influence was active and felt as far west as Lindon only just after the third king of Numenor - WELL before there was any division on Numenor or concern about mortality. Well past this period, the kings of Numenor still resigned their offices to their sons and died by conscious choice when they saw fit.
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Re: The Hobbit

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Glaurung was the Father of Dragons, and single-handedly overthrew Finrod and all of Nargothrond as well as completely emptying the plain of Sirion right up to Teiglin and the borders of Brethil and Doriath. Wings or no, there was no dragon more "badarse" than him... and the Dwarves of Belegost wounded him and drove him from the field at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad - even when all the Noldor of the League of Maedhros, along with the first two houses of the Edain, ran away from him like frail schoolgirls.
Ancalagon the Black was the greatest dragon of the first age, he was so vast he blocked out the sun and when he was finally struck down after driving back the whole host of the Valar he smashed the Iron Mountains surrounding Morgoths fortress. Glaurang may have been the first, but he was by no means the strongest.
We can only judge by the effects that were seen in Eriador. The fact that the Wainriders troubled the Rhovannion enough to make the Eorlingas move south, as well as being a direct threat to Gondor, is one effect; another is the fact that the Variags, the men of Rhun, and the descendants of the Wainriders all served Mordor. If the blue Istari were successful, these things wouldn't have happened.

As far as the five more Dwarf clans... that could be more evidence that Allatar and Palando weren't successful, because at least two of the eastern Dwarf clans fell to Shadow, at the very least trafficking with Orcs and trading with Mordor.

As far as the Umanyari... it's very tough to say that any remaining in the East would have done anything at all either way. We know that the Laiquendi did nothing, even in the First Age in Beleriand, save hide and ignore the Sindar and Noldor except hide Beren and Luthien. The Nandor of Lothlorien and Greenwood did nothing at all until Galadriel and Celeborn took over; and soon after that, when Eregion fell, they still did nothing except hide a ring. Were there other tribes of Moriquendi hanging out somewhere? It's possible, though I don't think anyone knows where Cuivenen lay; but it's very tough to say that they did anything useful due to Allatar's and Palando's efforts, nor that they would have done anything anyway.
If you house catches fire and no one comes to help your whole house will burn down. If it catches fire and firefighters come quick enough so only your Kitchen is gutted and some smoke damage to your lounge I would say that is a sucess.

Who knows how bad things might have been with out the blues. The East might have formed into a strong and stable alliance that could have totally wiped out the west. They might have launched more assults than just the two major ones. Maybe Harad would of been a bigger and more united force than what we see. Considering the rather lack luster job the three wizards in the west did in stopping Angmar, protecting the line of Numenor, guarding against the Balrog and the dragons. The Blue wizards might have done a hell of a lot. We cant really know for sure. The one thing we do know for 100% is they didnt fall to evil like Saruman did otherwise we would have undoubtedly seen them in the war as powerful leaders of Mordor. Whick considering they lived in the east is a very impressive thing.

Do we know two clans of Dwarves fell into darkness? I cant recall reading that but it has been about 5 years since I read the complete works. I do remember it being said the Dwarves were almost impossible to sway to evil due to their nature.

I doubt the Dark elves of the East did much in open opposition to Sauron. But they may have helped the peaceful development of the men there. Lending spiritual aid if you will.
This is true - but you're underestimating the timing of Sauron's influence. Sauron was perceived in nature, if not in identity, by Gil-galad as mentioned in a letter he sent to Tar-Meneldur - who was only the fourth king over Numenor (he was the fifth king in name, but the second - Vardamir - never sat in office, resigning the scepter to his son as soon as Elros resigned it to him.) In fact, Gil-galad's fears were the reason behind the establishment of Vinyalonde. Since this letter was delayed by about a decade due to the travels of Aldarion, it's about right to suggest that Sauron's influence was active and felt as far west as Lindon only just after the third king of Numenor - WELL before there was any division on Numenor or concern about mortality. Well past this period, the kings of Numenor still resigned their offices to their sons and died by conscious choice when they saw fit.
Ah good point, I wonder how much of the darkening of Sauron was the darkness in mens hearts naturally or Sauron.

I still think it would have been the eventual outcome thought. Envy would destroy them eventually.
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