Pacific Rim

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Re: Pacific Rim

Postby Atekimogus » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:50 am

Tyyr wrote:I watched the con footage with Guillermo (who is the only reason I'm as stoked about this as I am) and his explanation is that the input from a Jaeger is too much for a single mind and would fry it. So they need two to handle all the input, but as a consequence need two people who are compatible and can mesh to control the Jaeger. That's also why the Chinese use three, they have a set of triplets perfectly set up to mesh so they went with it.


That is where I am not understanding things.

I have nothing against crews of 2-3-4 people, tanks have 3-4 crew nowadays and I am fine with it.

But what we see with the Jaegers is two pilots DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING in the cockpit. Now what set of input does the Jaeger use if Pilot A moves right foot and Pilot B moves left foot? Eg, what the hell does the jaeger do every time those two pilots do NOT move PERFERCTLY in SYNC?

Just saying the human brain cannot handle it and you need two of them...........well, I hope they come up with a better explanation in the movie but imho that sounds pretty bullshitty to me.
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Re: Pacific Rim

Postby Tyyr » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:04 pm

So did you not read the article I just posted before your reply or what?

Also, that's your hang up? The two pilot thing is bullshit but Godzilla's in-laws and making 80 meter robots to go punch them, that's getting a pass?
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Re: Pacific Rim

Postby Vic » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:26 pm

Well, ya! Everybody knows that GIANT monsters and GIANT robots to fight them are totally realistic Tyyr.......geez. :poke: :wink:
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Re: Pacific Rim

Postby Atekimogus » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:50 pm

Tyyr wrote:So did you not read the article I just posted before your reply or what?


As a matter of fact, I did not. It is a small link at the very end and it slipped my notice, so no need to get touchy.

Having read the article, the points I made are pretty much still valid since all the article says is that one person slips in concentration, the system recovers more easily from the "backup person". It doesn't say much about the test at all, how clear it was in which direction the "spacecraft" is supposed to go etc. etc.

Point is I still would very much like to know what would happen if person A wants to evade an asteroid by going up and left, while the other wants to go down and right. Oh right, the computer merges the input and the ship flys straight into the rock. :roll:


That is why it is pretty much nonsense to merge inputs of two individuals in a HIGHLY DYNAMIC situation and I admit I have trouble imagining how this is supposed to controll a huge robot, except that one pilot is in charge and the other is only there going through the motions as a living back-up system.

Lock, I also wouldn't have any trouble if we'd seen one pilot moving his upper body/weapon systems and the other controlling the lower torso/movement, that would make sense but we see two pilots going through the exact same motions for some reasons......

Give me just a semi-coherent reason why this should be a good idea and I will gladly accept it, imho it is just a plot point (pilot bonding and team building exercise to draw the monster fight out a bit longer) which they didn't quite thought through...
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Re: Pacific Rim

Postby Tyyr » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:54 pm

Atekimogus wrote:Having read the article, the points I made are pretty much still valid since all the article says is that one person slips in concentration, the system recovers more easily from the "backup person". It doesn't say much about the test at all, how clear it was in which direction the "spacecraft" is supposed to go etc. etc.

Skim better next time. The article also states that having two people reduced signal noise the system had to pick through allowing it to more accurately take their input.

Point is I still would very much like to know what would happen if person A wants to evade an asteroid by going up and left, while the other wants to go down and right. Oh right, the computer merges the input and the ship flys straight into the rock. :roll:

I know this is a really, really out there notion but maybe and I know this is highly, highly theoretical... they could talk. Shocking, I know, but hear me out. Maybe, two people who have spent extensive time training together presumably to get them to work in sync might have learned to react similarly, I mean with six billion people to choose from they MIGHT have looked for people with compatible thought processes and tendencies then trained them till they operate in sync. Then, if something odd comes up the two might... I dunno, react similarly. If they don't you could even pick someone to maybe lead where with divergent input the computer preferentially uses theirs until they resync.

That is why it is pretty much nonsense to merge inputs of two individuals in a HIGHLY DYNAMIC situation and I admit I have trouble imagining how this is supposed to controll a huge robot, except that one pilot is in charge and the other is only there going through the motions as a living back-up system.

So you actually can imagine a situation in which it would work and would be very much in line with what the article said is possible and beneficial when converting thoughts into directions for a machine.

Lock, I also wouldn't have any trouble if we'd seen one pilot moving his upper body/weapon systems and the other controlling the lower torso/movement, that would make sense but we see two pilots going through the exact same motions for some reasons......

Given that most of the weapon systems look to be some variation on punching I actually find it more implausible that one person would be in charge of gross movement while the other tries to fight the monster. Given that most physical combat relies on your entire body working together the coordination for one person controlling the legs and another the torso would likely be far more difficult.

Give me just a semi-coherent reason why this should be a good idea and I will gladly accept it, imho it is just a plot point (pilot bonding and team building exercise to draw the monster fight out a bit longer) which they didn't quite thought through...

There is a semi-coherent reason being given. It is backed up at least in part by our current experiences trying to control machines with our minds. You yourself came up with a perfectly workable solution for divergent input should it be received with one person being lead and the other reverting to backup. Is it likely going to be used as a team building excuse. YUP! Guess what, it's a movie about giant fucking robots fist punching Godzilla's in-laws directed by a guy who makes modern fairy tales. I'm a hyper critical jackass and even for me there's enough of a reason present for me to roll with it just fine.
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Re: Pacific Rim

Postby Atekimogus » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:25 pm

Tyyr wrote:
Atekimogus wrote:Having read the article, the points I made are pretty much still valid since all the article says is that one person slips in concentration, the system recovers more easily from the "backup person". It doesn't say much about the test at all, how clear it was in which direction the "spacecraft" is supposed to go etc. etc.

Skim better next time. The article also states that having two people reduced signal noise the system had to pick through allowing it to more accurately take their input.


This has nothing to do with two brains being better doing the same task or having faster reaction times and EVERYTHING to do with our as yet very undeveloped process of transfering thought into computer-input.

If we could achieve instant and perfect thought to computer-input methods, meaning I give orders with the speed of thought, adding a second brain would add nothing but interference, no matter how good they are trained to operate in sync and the only reason for a second operator would be as a backup.


Tyyr wrote:I know this is a really, really out there notion but maybe and I know this is highly, highly theoretical... they could talk. Shocking, I know, but hear me out. Maybe, two people who have spent extensive time training together presumably to get them to work in sync might have learned to react similarly, I mean with six billion people to choose from they MIGHT have looked for people with compatible thought processes and tendencies then trained them till they operate in sync. Then, if something odd comes up the two might... I dunno, react similarly. If they don't you could even pick someone to maybe lead where with divergent input the computer preferentially uses theirs until they resync.


I guess that is why we have two controls-sets in every plane and pilot and copilot talking about their actions while they SIMULTANIOUSLY fly the plane.......oh wait...what?

As I said, having a copilot as a backup is a good idea, having two pilots and extrapolating from their inputs the supposed action.....that seems stupid.

Tyyr wrote:Given that most of the weapon systems look to be some variation on punching I actually find it more implausible that one person would be in charge of gross movement while the other tries to fight the monster. Given that most physical combat relies on your entire body working together the coordination for one person controlling the legs and another the torso would likely be far more difficult.


Actually that is a reason to have only one operator since moving a human shaped body should come quite naturally....for a human. In comparison to...a tank or something, just saying.

Tyyr wrote:There is a semi-coherent reason being given. It is backed up at least in part by our current experiences trying to control machines with our minds. You yourself came up with a perfectly workable solution for divergent input should it be received with one person being lead and the other reverting to backup. Is it likely going to be used as a team building excuse. YUP! Guess what, it's a movie about giant fucking robots fist punching Godzilla's in-laws directed by a guy who makes modern fairy tales. I'm a hyper critical jackass and even for me there's enough of a reason present for me to roll with it just fine.


I don't really understand why you get all excited about it to be honest. I saw a cool trailer for a movie, wondered how this is supposed to work, wasn't really happy with the imho cheap and uncreative explanation and that is basically it.

Not sure I deserve so much aggro for this.... :roll:
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Re: Pacific Rim

Postby Tyyr » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:16 pm

****
Edit
****

You know what, fuck it. You're determined to not like it, whatever.

Got my ticket for Thursday night.
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Re: Pacific Rim

Postby McAvoy » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:48 pm

Tyyr wrote:****
Edit
****

You know what, fuck it. You're determined to not like it, whatever.

Got my ticket for Thursday night.



I dont think he is determined to not like it, just that to him having two pilots control a giant robot at the same makes no sense.

The only way I see it working is for the computer to be advanced enough to figure the two different brain patterns and reactions and everything else into a single efficient output. To me if you are advanced enough to do that with two brains then maybe you care advanced to enough to have one pilot or an advanced AI.
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Re: Pacific Rim

Postby Tyyr » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:51 pm

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Re: Pacific Rim

Postby Mikey » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:39 am

OK... this is the point of contention about this movie? Really? How many brain signals the giant toys process at once?

What I see is a bunch of... well, the best way I can describe it is Godzilla: The Next Generation monsters attacking various population centers. Add to that the fact that all these different nations come up with basically the identical technological solution... and that solution is, in all instances, the most tactically unsound type of mobile weapons platform of which anyone could possibly conceive. You guys can maintain your suspension of disbelief through all of that, but the number of pilots is a sticking point?
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Re: Pacific Rim

Postby Vic » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:43 am

lol....LOL....*cackle*

Thank you for that Mikey.
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Re: Pacific Rim

Postby Mikey » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:26 am

I wasn't trying to put anyone down... it's just that this isn't exactly Clarke-type hard SF, you know? Giant mecha vs. rubbery alien monster things. Don't go in expecting to be able to logically analyze the science.
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Re: Pacific Rim

Postby Atekimogus » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:23 am



As I said, it works better because our current technology sucks. It's like combining two unreliable and shitty radios to get a better signal but as soon as you have one perfect working radio all a second does is nothing in the best case, creating interference in the worst case.


Mikey wrote:OK... this is the point of contention about this movie? Really? How many brain signals the giant toys process at once?

What I see is a bunch of... well, the best way I can describe it is Godzilla: The Next Generation monsters attacking various population centers. Add to that the fact that all these different nations come up with basically the identical technological solution... and that solution is, in all instances, the most tactically unsound type of mobile weapons platform of which anyone could possibly conceive. You guys can maintain your suspension of disbelief through all of that, but the number of pilots is a sticking point?


Lol, well the devil lies always in the detail. I don't expect this little detail to spoil my enjoyment of the movie however.....if it is any good, that is.
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Re: Pacific Rim

Postby Tyyr » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:21 pm

Atekimogus wrote:As I said, it works better because our current technology sucks. It's like combining two unreliable and shitty radios to get a better signal but as soon as you have one perfect working radio all a second does is nothing in the best case, creating interference in the worst case.

This is officially the last thing I'm going to say on this.

The movie world starts in 2013, this year. By 2016 they have built the first Jaeger using this technology. IT IS CURRENT TECHNOLOGY. This isn't set in 2213. It's starts in 2013.

Mikey wrote:OK... this is the point of contention about this movie? Really? How many brain signals the giant toys process at once?

Yeah, I don't particularly get it either.

Regardless, saw it and it's amazing. I tend to scoff at the new trailers where the movie industry tries to tell you that home theater isn't good enough for a movie but you want to see this on a big screen and you want to see it period.

Let me encapsulate this movie in a single snippet of about 5 seconds from it. Having driven the giant gorrilla/crab-esque monster the size of yankee stadium to it's knees the hero jaeger hauls it's fist back, ignites a gigantic rocket in it's elbow, and rocket punches said monster straight in it's ugly monster face sending it flying backwards crashing through dock cranes and cargo containers like they were mulch.
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Re: Pacific Rim

Postby Coalition » Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:47 pm

I had been thinking during the movie that making an assembly line of anti-shipping cruise missiles would be a good quick defense against Kaiju. Mach 2+, tandem charge to use a shaped charge to penetrate the armor, then the second warhead detonates inside. Modern tech would allow them to be guided via lasers, or ROV links in the targeted city. The missile gets launched to the area the Kaiju will be approaching, and when the Kaiju emerges the missile attacks. The other option would be land-based units deployed to each city, with surface-Kaiju missiles loaded. This would probably take less effort than building a wall.

The Kh-22 might be a good idea, as it has a 4000 kph top speed, and a radius of 400 km. The Thor might be another idea, it would take roughly half an hour to arrive, but has an operational radius of 2400 km with a 1 ton warhead. Pity the Thor masses 50 tons, so there is a lot of extra mass that has to be assembled.
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