SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Enterprise
SolkaTruesilver
Commander
Commander
Posts: 1406
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:49 am

Re: SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Post by SolkaTruesilver »

Captain Seafort wrote:
SolkaTruesilver wrote:I also think that sending a terrorist to help shape up a terrorist organisation from within the Cardassian Union to challenge the Dominion was a complete violation of the Prime Directive, as it was meddling with their internal affairs.
On the contrary - the Federation was providing support to an insurgency created by and led by the head of the Cardassian government against an occupying power
Not to forget influencing a sovereign government's decision to break their neutrality agreement with your enemy.
Not a purely internal matter, as it related directly to the foreign relations of the Romulan Empire
Warning the Cardassians of the incoming Klingons...
Not a purely internal matter, as it related directly to the foreign relations of the Cardassian Union. It was stupid, but it wasn't a PD violation.
Good points. I guess it really starts to stretch when you want to apply "purely internal matters" to the mix..

I get to think... has there been a single instance the words "Prime Directive" been applied in DS9 (except the Pilot)? I mean, beside "Temporal Prime Directive" when time travel shennanigans happened?

(On that comment, I want to see Chuck review Past Tense)
User avatar
Deepcrush
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 18917
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:15 pm
Location: Arnold, Maryland, USA

Re: SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Post by Deepcrush »

The issue with the Klingon Civil War was that it was considered an "Internal Matter" and thus the PD forbids "interference in the natural events of a race" until proven otherwise. That's why Picard had to prove the Romulans were involved. It would both allow Federation support of Gowron and wreck the Klingon support that the Duras had built up.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
Mark
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 17671
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

Re: SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Post by Mark »

IIRC the Prime Directive specifically refers to the natural development of a species. The Klingon Civil war could be seen in such a light, which is why Starfleet was only able to block Romulan aid to one specific faction.

The Klingon invasion of Cardassia was something completely different though. That was an intersteller matter, totally outside the perview of the PD. Had it been a simple Cardassian civil war, the UFP would have had to stay out of it.
They say that in the Army,
the women are mighty fine.
They look like Phyllis Diller,
and walk like Frankenstein.
SolkaTruesilver
Commander
Commander
Posts: 1406
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:49 am

Re: SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Post by SolkaTruesilver »

All right. So I ask again, 'cause I can't seem to remember an instance of the Prime Directive being brought up.
Tsukiyumi
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 21747
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:38 pm
Location: Forward Torpedo Tube Twenty. Help!
Contact:

Re: SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Post by Tsukiyumi »

Mark wrote:IIRC the Prime Directive specifically refers to the natural development of a species. The Klingon Civil war could be seen in such a light, which is why Starfleet was only able to block Romulan aid to one specific faction.

The Klingon invasion of Cardassia was something completely different though. That was an intersteller matter, totally outside the perview of the PD. Had it been a simple Cardassian civil war, the UFP would have had to stay out of it.
So, why didn't the Federation get involved with the Cardassian occupation of Bajor?
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Post by Captain Seafort »

Tsukiyumi wrote:So, why didn't the Federation get involved with the Cardassian occupation of Bajor?
Because it was, at the time, an internal Cardassian matter.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
SolkaTruesilver
Commander
Commander
Posts: 1406
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:49 am

Re: SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Post by SolkaTruesilver »

Captain Seafort wrote:
Tsukiyumi wrote:So, why didn't the Federation get involved with the Cardassian occupation of Bajor?
Because it was, at the time, an internal Cardassian matter.
So Klingons invading Cardassia to occupy it isn't a Klingon internal matter.
Cardassian occupying Bajor is a Cardassian internal matter.

.... :bangwall:

I HATE TREK POLITICS
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Post by Captain Seafort »

SolkaTruesilver wrote:So Klingons invading Cardassia to occupy it isn't a Klingon internal matter.
Cardassian occupying Bajor is a Cardassian internal matter.

.... :bangwall:

I HATE TREK POLITICS
It's everyone else's politics as well. An invasion is (obviously) not an internal matter. We're not talking about an invasion when it comes to Bajor - the occupation was a fait accompli.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
SolkaTruesilver
Commander
Commander
Posts: 1406
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:49 am

Re: SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Post by SolkaTruesilver »

Captain Seafort wrote:
SolkaTruesilver wrote:So Klingons invading Cardassia to occupy it isn't a Klingon internal matter.
Cardassian occupying Bajor is a Cardassian internal matter.

.... :bangwall:

I HATE TREK POLITICS
It's everyone else's politics as well. An invasion is (obviously) not an internal matter. We're not talking about an invasion when it comes to Bajor - the occupation was a fait accompli.
Since Cardassian might have made First Contact with the Federation as far as the 22nd century, as a Cardassian exile was living on Vulcan at the time, and since the Occupation only lasted 50 years, I'd guess the invasion occured and the Federation could have been aware of it.

Although, the other possibility, if I remember my Occupation History, the initial annexation actually occured over a large period of time. Cardi/Bajoran relations were relatively peaceful, with the Cardassian offering some military presence on their planet. The thing is, the Cardassian progressively increased said presence, until they decided to outright annex the planet. They used the age-old strategy of presenting themselves as benefactor to subversaly (gram?) take control. So.. technically, at the time of the annexation, the Bajorans were considered to be Cardassian's protectorate, and thu any change in Bajoran/Cardassian relations were strictly internal Cardassian matters.
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
Posts: 35635
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:04 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Post by Mikey »

Actually, I think the UFP did decide to take a hands-off approach to the Klingon invasion of Cardassia - it was just Sisko that didn't.
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Post by Captain Seafort »

Mikey wrote:Actually, I think the UFP did decide to take a hands-off approach to the Klingon invasion of Cardassia - it was just Sisko that didn't.
True, but I think it's strongly debatable whether that was due to the PD or not wanting to piss off their allies too badly. Sisko's intervention, and the considerably more effective than otherwise Cardie resistance, really upset the apple cart.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
SolkaTruesilver
Commander
Commander
Posts: 1406
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:49 am

Re: SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Post by SolkaTruesilver »

Captain Seafort wrote:
Mikey wrote:Actually, I think the UFP did decide to take a hands-off approach to the Klingon invasion of Cardassia - it was just Sisko that didn't.
True, but I think it's strongly debatable whether that was due to the PD or not wanting to piss off their allies too badly. Sisko's intervention, and the considerably more effective than otherwise Cardie resistance, really upset the apple cart.
You think, if the Klingons had managed to completely surprise the Spoonheads and conquer them quickly (ergo: Sisko not intervening), they would not have overreacted as strongly as they did to the Federation Council's condemnation of the invasion?
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Post by Captain Seafort »

SolkaTruesilver wrote:You think, if the Klingons had managed to completely surprise the Spoonheads and conquer them quickly (ergo: Sisko not intervening), they would not have overreacted as strongly as they did to the Federation Council's condemnation of the invasion?
No, I think that if the Klingons had overwhelmed the Cardies before the quadrant in general had had time to digest the news, the Feds probably wouldn't have complained as vociferously - there's little point in kicking up a stink about an issue that had already been decided. Unfortunately, with the Cardies still fighting and the Feds with a reputation as the local goody two shoes to uphold, they were left with little option put to protest loudly and publicly.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
User avatar
BigJKU316
Captain
Captain
Posts: 1949
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:19 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award, Cochrane Medal of Excellence

Re: SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Post by BigJKU316 »

SolkaTruesilver wrote:
Captain Seafort wrote:
SolkaTruesilver wrote:So Klingons invading Cardassia to occupy it isn't a Klingon internal matter.
Cardassian occupying Bajor is a Cardassian internal matter.

.... :bangwall:

I HATE TREK POLITICS
It's everyone else's politics as well. An invasion is (obviously) not an internal matter. We're not talking about an invasion when it comes to Bajor - the occupation was a fait accompli.
Since Cardassian might have made First Contact with the Federation as far as the 22nd century, as a Cardassian exile was living on Vulcan at the time, and since the Occupation only lasted 50 years, I'd guess the invasion occured and the Federation could have been aware of it.

Although, the other possibility, if I remember my Occupation History, the initial annexation actually occured over a large period of time. Cardi/Bajoran relations were relatively peaceful, with the Cardassian offering some military presence on their planet. The thing is, the Cardassian progressively increased said presence, until they decided to outright annex the planet. They used the age-old strategy of presenting themselves as benefactor to subversaly (gram?) take control. So.. technically, at the time of the annexation, the Bajorans were considered to be Cardassian's protectorate, and thu any change in Bajoran/Cardassian relations were strictly internal Cardassian matters.
I am guessing you are over thinking this issue. My guess is that when it happened the UFP had bigger things to worry about than some backwards planet being conquered by the Cardassians. We only see it when the deed is already done and at that point it is both an internal matter for the Cardassians and pretty much impossible to change the situation short of starting a war.
User avatar
Reliant121
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
Posts: 12263
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:00 pm

Re: SFDebris discusses The Prime Directive

Post by Reliant121 »

If the UFP had encountered the Cardassians that early, then there would be either the Romulan War to contend with or later, the ongoing and lengthy cold war style conflict with the Klingons.
Post Reply