Possible Defense for Enterprise

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Re: Possible Defense for Enterprise

Post by Atekimogus »

Captain Seafort wrote: There's no evidence of any such agreements.
True, just an attempt to explain the Kelvin without resorting to yet another universe.

Captain Seafort wrote:It's not simply a matter of hull area, but of magazine capacity and size of weapon. The greater the internal volume of the ship, the more and/or bigger reactors it can hold, and the more reactants, either for the warp core(s) or torpedoes. The more massive the ship, the greater the recoil it can absorb, and therefore the bigger the weapons it can mount (don't forget that even weapons firing massless particles have recoil). The reduced surface area-volume ratio of a bigger ship also means that it can mount thicker armour for the same fraction of it's mass.
True on every account, yet I was talking more about the possibility of building a bigger ship for non-military reasons similar to oil-tankers and container ships who are larger than military vessels. So a specialized far less advanced survey ship could still fit with much more sophisticated Constitutions.
Captain Seafort wrote:An assumption that is disproven by the fact that Voyager had two warp cores visible on its MSD, and that the E-E didn't have any problems leaving the Briar Patch in Insurrection after ejecting and blowing up its warp core.
Correct me if I am wrong but the second Intrepid Warpcore seems to be dormant meaning they are always operating only one core. Also when they loose it in one episode it is rather clear that they are pretty fucked up. (Maybe they used the reserve one already for spare parts or the writers just didn't care:))

The E-E left the Briar Patch on impulse. I had the impression they just got out to find a spot were they could send a transmission and then went back in again. I am not sure if they warped all the way to earth to make the report in person but it has been a while watching Insurrection, so I might be wrong.

Given the size of the whole warp-core + fuel arrangement I see no reason at all why bigger ships like Ambassadors, GCS' etc don't have a multitude of cores operating at the same time, yet they do not. I don't know why......

Captain Seafort wrote:There is, however, no evidence that they could build bigger ships, and plenty of evidence that they couldn't.
Except the Kelvin of course. Now I might play the canon-card -which is rather lame - or I can just say that I agree with you. The Kelvin visually and size-wise doesn't really fit into the prime-universe yet I find myself rather easily accepting that there could be possibilities were such a ship might have existed even in the prime-universe. For some reason it doesn't bother my nearly as much as some ENT mistakes like the D7 battlecruiser, phase cannons etc. .
Captain Seafort wrote:Other than the obvious statement that games are non-canon, they're also a pretty poor method of judging the abilities of the universe they're based on, as their main objective is player enjoyment, not consistency with the source.
True, yet the Starfleet Command games - if you are familiar with them - are rather accurate simulations imho. So if they come up with some reasonable concepts - even if not canon - I see no harm discussing them.
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Re: Possible Defense for Enterprise

Post by Captain Seafort »

Atekimogus wrote:True, just an attempt to explain the Kelvin without resorting to yet another universe.
Under Occam's Razor, however, another universe isn't another entity, as the multiple universe model has already been demonstrated. The Geneverse Starfleet being able to build such large ships as the neoE, on the other hand, has not been demonstrated.
Correct me if I am wrong but the second Intrepid Warpcore seems to be dormant meaning they are always operating only one core. Also when they loose it in one episode it is rather clear that they are pretty f***ed up. (Maybe they used the reserve one already for spare parts or the writers just didn't care:))
True, but this is after three or four years with no starbase support - the second core could easily have been cannibalised to keep the main one operational.
The E-E left the Briar Patch on impulse. I had the impression they just got out to find a spot were they could send a transmission and then went back in again. I am not sure if they warped all the way to earth to make the report in person but it has been a while watching Insurrection, so I might be wrong.
I'm not talking about Riker's mission, but about the ship's final departure - there was no mention whatsoever of a spare core being shipped out to the Patch to get the E-E going again.
Except the Kelvin of course.
The Kelvin is little more than supporting evidence - the major part of the evidence is the neoE, which is considerably larger than even a GCS, decades before the Excelsior was considered something special.
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Re: Possible Defense for Enterprise

Post by Sonic Glitch »

Captain Seafort wrote:[.
The E-E left the Briar Patch on impulse. I had the impression they just got out to find a spot were they could send a transmission and then went back in again. I am not sure if they warped all the way to earth to make the report in person but it has been a while watching Insurrection, so I might be wrong.
I'm not talking about Riker's mission, but about the ship's final departure - there was no mention whatsoever of a spare core being shipped out to the Patch to get the E-E going again.
We also never see the E-E actually leave the patch at the end of the movie IIRC so by the logic of "if it's not mentioned it couldn't possibly have happened," it never left the Patch.
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Re: Possible Defense for Enterprise

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Sonic Glitch wrote:We also never see the E-E actually leave the patch at the end of the movie IIRC so by the logic of "if it's not mentioned it couldn't possibly have happened," it never left the Patch.
We did, however, see the ship pulling away from the planet, with the logical conclusion that she was leaving. Ejecting the core isn't something that happens every day, so it would be logical for someone to mention is a spare had been shipped it, and yet we heard nothing of the sort.

The situation is similar to that in First Contact, when the ship's lack of a deflector dish didn't stop them going to warp to return to the 24th century. The conclusion from that is that the ship has a secondary deflector, so why not a secondary warp core to resolve the anomaly in Insurrection?
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Re: Possible Defense for Enterprise

Post by USSEnterprise »

Interesting....the theory makes a lot of sense. First off, Cochrane would have been a person who would have shaped Earth's budding space program. With his knowledge of the Borg and what was really out there in the universe, it might have spurred him to a more militaristic mindset. In ENT, it was shown that he tried to convince people that the Borg did indeed exist, and that time travelers stopped them. Seeing as he wasn't worried about the possibilities of changing the timeline, he could have very well been the catalyst that changes Starfleet.
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Re: Possible Defense for Enterprise

Post by Mikey »

However, with the case of the E-E in INS, we know that there was no "spare" core. Geordi stated explicitly that there were no more warp cores.
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Re: Possible Defense for Enterprise

Post by stitch626 »

There is, however, no evidence that they could build bigger ships
Other than Starbase 74, and Spacedock, right.
If they could build such large stations, there is no reason they couldn't build large ships.
And the warp field is not a problem either because we have seen the field spread around other ships (however that works...).
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Re: Possible Defense for Enterprise

Post by Vic »

Mikey wrote:
Vic wrote:This would mean that the Temporal Cold War is happening across multiple timelines not just one. So do the various Temporal Agencies exist in the various timelines or just one and operate in those various other timelines?

Why would it mean that? There's no evidence of the Temporal Cold War in the TOS - TNG - DS9 - VOY timeline, so why would Mark's explanation need for it to occur there?

I am taking Enterprise whole cloth in that statement, if postualting that Enterprise is the POD for the Abrahmverse then we would need to. The Temporal Cold War not happening in the TOS timeline, yet happening in Enterprise could be evidence in support of Mark's assertion.
Last edited by Vic on Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Possible Defense for Enterprise

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Captain Seafort wrote: Under Occam's Razor, however, another universe isn't another entity, as the multiple universe model has already been demonstrated. The Geneverse Starfleet being able to build such large ships as the neoE, on the other hand, has not been demonstrated.
True, but than the discussion isn't about the neoE but about the Kelvin which - if I have the right figures - isn't really THAT much bigger.
Captain Seafort wrote:True, but this is after three or four years with no starbase support - the second core could easily have been cannibalised to keep the main one operational.
Exactly my point. We never see any starship operating more than one warp core at a time. Since available space doesn't seem to be an issue we can at least speculate that there is a practical reason for it now, can we not?
Captain Seafort wrote:I'm not talking about Riker's mission, but about the ship's final departure - there was no mention whatsoever of a spare core being shipped out to the Patch to get the E-E going again.
Meaning that the E-E obviously had enough impuls power available to create a warp bubble. That is not that suprising since the E-D saucer is known to maintain a warp bubble with impulse only and if you consider that the early romulan warbirds obviously used impuls-power to achieve FTL. I would guess it is a major drain on the energy reserves or has other severe drawbacks but there you have it.

You also mention the E-E missing a main-deflector at First Contanct. Well first they didn't destroy the whole deflector, just some subspace-antenna-techno-babble thing which wasn't really that big, so I guess the ships workshop could easily replace it. Secondly, since there are ships with no visible main deflector at all, relying on shields, phaser, tractors etc. I guess they can make do with what they have in an emergency.

But to be honest, I lost track of how the ability to function without a core or main deflector was relevant to the discussion about possible ship sizes prior to TOS.

Captain Seafort wrote:The Kelvin is little more than supporting evidence - the major part of the evidence is the neoE, which is considerably larger than even a GCS, decades before the Excelsior was considered something special.
But the neoE didn't exist in the prime timeline. Maybe I am mixing up something but wasn't the whole discussion about the Kelvin beeing possible in the prime-timeline - with the emergence of the Narada beeing the focuspoint for the split - even if it is a bit bigger than following ship classes? The neoE is confirmed to be in a different universe. (So much confusion only with two universes.....thats why I am not into DC comics, I hear they have a buttload of them.....)
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Re: Possible Defense for Enterprise

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stitch626 wrote:Other than Starbase 74, and Spacedock, right.
If they could build such large stations, there is no reason they couldn't build large ships.
No, it means they could build physical structures that large. It does not mean that they could build physical structures that large that could move.
And the warp field is not a problem either because we have seen the field spread around other ships (however that works...).
When? We've seen the deflectors extended around other ships, and we've seen two ships combine their warp field, but I don't recall a single instance of warp fields being extended.
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Re: Possible Defense for Enterprise

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Atekimogus wrote:True, but than the discussion isn't about the neoE but about the Kelvin which - if I have the right figures - isn't really THAT much bigger.
The discussion was, originally, about whether the Abramsverse separated from the Geneverse far earlier than the Narada's appearance, with the neoE being evidence as this - there's no evidence of Starfleet having anything like the shipbuilding expertise to build a ship that big so early. The fact that the Kelvin is as big or bigger than the E-nil is simply nice supporting evidence, based on the trend of survey ships being far smaller than capital warships (look at the Oberth and Nova classes for example).
Exactly my point. We never see any starship operating more than one warp core at a time. Since available space doesn't seem to be an issue we can at least speculate that there is a practical reason for it now, can we not?
"Don't" and "can't" are entirely different things, and we have never been given any hint of anything that might prevent two cores being operated simultaneously. Indeed, come to think of it the NX-01's engine room looked as though it had two reactors side by side rather than a single central one.
*snip E-E stuff*
I don't necessarily agree with these specific points, but since Mikey brings up the point that Geordi outright stated that the E-E was out of warp cores, you may consider the point on how many she had conceded.
But to be honest, I lost track of how the ability to function without a core or main deflector was relevant to the discussion about possible ship sizes prior to TOS.
It evolved out of the points regarding the superiority of a large ship over a small one.
But the neoE didn't exist in the prime timeline. Maybe I am mixing up something but wasn't the whole discussion about the Kelvin beeing possible in the prime-timeline - with the emergence of the Narada beeing the focuspoint for the split - even if it is a bit bigger than following ship classes? The neoE is confirmed to be in a different universe.
I'm suggesting that since the split occurred long before the Narada's appearance, the Kelvin may well have either a) not have existed at all or b) existed in a substantially different form, given the superiority of Starfleet shipbuilding in the Abramsverse over that in the Geneverse. It's possible that it existed as depicted, but given that all other survey ships have been substantially smaller, and we can tell from the neoE that the timeline had already diverged, it's unlikely.
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Re: Possible Defense for Enterprise

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Captain Seafort wrote:
stitch626 wrote:Other than Starbase 74, and Spacedock, right.
If they could build such large stations, there is no reason they couldn't build large ships.
No, it means they could build physical structures that large. It does not mean that they could build physical structures that large that could move.
I stand corrected.

Captain Seafort wrote:
And the warp field is not a problem either because we have seen the field spread around other ships (however that works...).
When? We've seen the deflectors extended around other ships, and we've seen two ships combine their warp field, but I don't recall a single instance of warp fields being extended.
ENT when Enterprise's warp drive got sabotaged (or something like that, the episode with Klingon augments I think), Columbia extended her warp field to hold the Enterprise stable while she restarted the warp drive.
I think we've seen it in Voyager as well, but I can't remember it specifically enough.
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Re: Possible Defense for Enterprise

Post by Mikey »

There was the bit in TNG about extending the E-D's warp field into a stellar fragment to alter its mass, also. Be that as it may, the ability to do so on a temporary emergency basis doesn't imply the ability to use it as a matter-of-course, long-term method of propulsion.
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Re: Possible Defense for Enterprise

Post by Atekimogus »

Captain Seafort wrote: I'm suggesting that since the split occurred long before the Narada's appearance, the Kelvin may well have either a) not have existed at all or b) existed in a substantially different form, given the superiority of Starfleet shipbuilding in the Abramsverse over that in the Geneverse. It's possible that it existed as depicted, but given that all other survey ships have been substantially smaller, and we can tell from the neoE that the timeline had already diverged, it's unlikely.
Then our oppinions are not as far apart as I thought and I do like your argument about survey ships beeing in general smaller than other ships like the oberth class, hadn't thought of her.

But maybe to clarify, what would you say is the difference between a survey-ship, a scout-ship and an explorer ship? The oberth for example is also said to be an explorer type ship yet it is vastly different from the GCS. So what is the Kelvin exactly?
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Re: Possible Defense for Enterprise

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Captain Seafort wrote:No, it means they could build physical structures that large. It does not mean that they could build physical structures that large that could move.
I had intended to mention that myself. The stresses you'd put on a ship that large just by shoving a sublight engine on it would be incredible. You'd need to almost completely redesign the interior to stop the entire structure just falling apart under the stress of its own engines. Let alone trying to get it to move FTL.

I'm sure Tyyr or someone else with engineering experience could explain this a bit better than I can.
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