Voth reclaiming Earth

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Re: Voth reclaiming Earth

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Atekimogus wrote:As for the Voth invading the UFP. I wouldn't be overly worried. They seem to be few in numbers and let's not forget one simple thing. They are pretty slow and dumb.
A slow, dumb individual with a fifty cal, unlimited ammunition, a clear field of fire and the knowledge to operate it would still wipe the floor with any number of cavemen.
Now sure they have impressive technology but didn't even the Voyager manage to trick them somehow?
Nope - the Voth let them go as part of a deal with the Voth scientist.
Villain of the week yes, but relativly easy to manage.
Not at all. Voth versus the Federation is about as none-sided as you can get.
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Re: Voth reclaiming Earth

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I'm not sure it would be that one-sided if the Voth had only one city ship, but a half-dozen or so?
Yeah, the Federation is pretty much done for...
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Re: Voth reclaiming Earth

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Praeothmin wrote:I'm not sure it would be that one-sided if the Voth had only one city ship, but a half-dozen or so?
Even with one city-ship, their strategic mobility and large-scale effector/displacer capability would wipe the floor with the Federation.
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Re: Voth reclaiming Earth

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Captain Seafort wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:I'm not sure it would be that one-sided if the Voth had only one city ship, but a half-dozen or so?
Even with one city-ship, their strategic mobility and large-scale effector/displacer capability would wipe the floor with the Federation.
If it is only attacked by small groups, yeah, sure, I don't see any issues with the Voth wiping the floor with their opponents, but if they were attacked by 40 ships or more at a time?
Hhhmm, not sure...
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Re: Voth reclaiming Earth

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Praeothmin wrote:If it is only attacked by small groups, yeah, sure, I don't see any issues with the Voth wiping the floor with their opponents, but if they were attacked by 40 ships or more at a time?
Look what the Borg did to 40 ships at Wolf, then look at Tsu's quip on the first page, which sums the situation up pretty well. The ability to shut starships down willy-nilly, the way the Voth did to Voyager, is to all intents and purposes an "I win" button.
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Re: Voth reclaiming Earth

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Captain Seafort wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:If it is only attacked by small groups, yeah, sure, I don't see any issues with the Voth wiping the floor with their opponents, but if they were attacked by 40 ships or more at a time?
Look what the Borg did to 40 ships at Wolf, then look at Tsu's quip on the first page, which sums the situation up pretty well. The ability to shut starships down willy-nilly, the way the Voth did to Voyager, is to all intents and purposes an "I win" button.
But Wolf 359 happened quite a few years ago in ST history, look at how Starfleet ships were able to actually destroy a Borg ship in FC with much less than 40 ships...

I guess it depends on how fast they can actually affect the ships attacking them, and how powerful they're shields are...
If they can only affect one ship at a time, once per minute, for example, the story will be much different than if they can affect a dozen ship in a large area, for example...
Too many unknowns IMO to get an accurate picture...
Compared to the Borg, whom we've seen in combat many times, the Voth are are hard race to extrapolate combat performances from...

*Edit: For example, the Breen had weapons that could incapacitate any Starfleet ship, but when fired upon were not tougher than other Federation enemies...
So if the Voth have a glass jaw and can't affect ships fast enough...
That's why I believe we have too little information on their combat capacity to paint an accurate picture...
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Re: Voth reclaiming Earth

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Still, it would be a cakewalk, I suppose. Their shields are probably strong enough to soak up damage for long periods of time, what's stopping the Voth from transporting ship inside, shutting them down, beam random shit out, transport the ship out again and let it go boom? Not that it was ever demonstrated, but their transporters are powerful enough to be weapons on their own.
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Re: Voth reclaiming Earth

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True, but again, can they do it to many ships at a time, one ship at a time, one ship per hour?
And if only against 1 ship, how good are their shields vs 39 other ships firing at it at the same time?
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Re: Voth reclaiming Earth

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Praeothmin wrote:True, but again, can they do it to many ships at a time, one ship at a time, one ship per hour?
And if only against 1 ship, how good are their shields vs 39 other ships firing at it at the same time?
And wether or not Starfleet would be intelligent enough to concentrate their fire at the same point, such as in First Contact. Starfleet tactics could be deficient as well.
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Re: Voth reclaiming Earth

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Praeothmin wrote:
Captain Seafort wrote:Look what the Borg did to 40 ships at Wolf, then look at Tsu's quip on the first page, which sums the situation up pretty well. The ability to shut starships down willy-nilly, the way the Voth did to Voyager, is to all intents and purposes an "I win" button.
But Wolf 359 happened quite a few years ago in ST history, look at how Starfleet ships were able to actually destroy a Borg ship in FC with much less than 40 ships...
Starfleet was on the verge of losing the battle against that single Borg cube in First Contact until Picard showed up, picked up Borg thoughts and unleashed his "fire everything at this spot" plot device. Failing that, Earth gets assimilated if Picard hadn't disobeyed his orders to patrol the Neutral Zone. The fleet had caused damage to the cube but not enough to stop it.
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Re: Voth reclaiming Earth

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Captain Picard's Hair wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:
Captain Seafort wrote:Look what the Borg did to 40 ships at Wolf, then look at Tsu's quip on the first page, which sums the situation up pretty well. The ability to shut starships down willy-nilly, the way the Voth did to Voyager, is to all intents and purposes an "I win" button.
But Wolf 359 happened quite a few years ago in ST history, look at how Starfleet ships were able to actually destroy a Borg ship in FC with much less than 40 ships...
Starfleet was on the verge of losing the battle against that single Borg cube in First Contact until Picard showed up, picked up Borg thoughts and unleashed his "fire everything at this spot" plot device. Failing that, Earth gets assimilated if Picard hadn't disobeyed his orders to patrol the Neutral Zone. The fleet had caused damage to the cube but not enough to stop it.
That was also after a (according to the novelization at least to my understanding) four-day running battle. The fact that the battle even lasted that long is impressive in itself, much better than Wolf 359.
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Re: Voth reclaiming Earth

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Sonic Glitch wrote:That was also after a (according to the novelization at least to my understanding) four-day running battle. The fact that the battle even lasted that long is impressive in itself, much better than Wolf 359.
I'd assumed there was some delay due to the time it took E-E to reach Earth from the neutral zone, but the film gives no clue as to the duration. It is actually hard to pin down warp travel times because they seem to follow the needs of the plot rather than any practical in-universe requirement. That said, I wouldn't have guessed the battle was 4 days old when Enterprise arrived (I haven't seen the novelization).
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Re: Voth reclaiming Earth

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Captain Picard's Hair wrote:That said, I wouldn't have guessed the battle was 4 days old when Enterprise arrived (I haven't seen the novelization).
I wouldn't - she was on the Neutral Zone when contact was made, so it makes sense that it would take at least a few days to reach the heart of the Federation from there.
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Re: Voth reclaiming Earth

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Captain Seafort wrote:
Atekimogus wrote:As for the Voth invading the UFP. I wouldn't be overly worried. They seem to be few in numbers and let's not forget one simple thing. They are pretty slow and dumb.
A slow, dumb individual with a fifty cal, unlimited ammunition, a clear field of fire and the knowledge to operate it would still wipe the floor with any number of cavemen.
Yes of course, however the timespan it took them to develop their tech is insanly long and all they came up with seems potent, no doubt, but not necessarily as advanced as one would think given the timespan, with much of their tech being in a stage the UFP is already tinkering with (transwarp for example) or is just a more potent version of tech already in use.

So yes, Voyager was pretty helpless against them. But how would a second encounter look with the ressources of the whole UFP being there to analyse it and finding countermeasures?

First contact with the Borg. Disaster. Second contact...well also but they came up with new stuff incredibly fast and when Voyager ends Borgs are just a joke.
Dominion. First contact...a disaster, completely defensless. SEcond contanct....yeah, though luck, we made our shields work again, suck it dominion.
Breen. Upsy daisy, they are shutting down our ships. WTF. A few weeks (months) later....."Please keep shooting your disabling beam while we don't give a damn and shoving a few quantums down your throat!"

So yeah.....what we have seen from the Voth doesn't impress me that much. We have seen far more potent stuff they were able to deal with.

Captain Picard's Hair wrote:That said, I wouldn't have guessed the battle was 4 days old when Enterprise arrived (I haven't seen the novelization).
How it was presented in the movie I wouldn't have guessed it either, truth be told I never really thought about it. It does make sense however and imho - in hindsight - it is a lost opportunity to build tension. Now I know that nowadays with greatly shortened attention spans this would never fly however showing the agitation a bit while taking 4 days to finally reach the battle......could have been great imho without interupting the flow of the movie to much.
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Re: Voth reclaiming Earth

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Atekimogus wrote:Yes of course, however the timespan it took them to develop their tech is insanly long and all they came up with seems potent, no doubt, but not necessarily as advanced as one would think given the timespan, with much of their tech being in a stage the UFP is already tinkering with (transwarp for example) or is just a more potent version of tech already in use.
Where have we previously seen such casual disabling of an opponent's computer systems? With regards the transwarp, where have we seen the Feds use it without either a) nicking it or b) nearly destroying the ship in the process?
First contact with the Borg. Disaster. Second contact...well also but they came up with new stuff incredibly fast and when Voyager ends Borgs are just a joke.
First contact - ripped through the Neutral Zone colonies on both sides so badly that no one even got off a description. Second contact, E-D only survived thanks to literal Act of Q. Third contact, Wolf 359, 'nuff said. Hugh doesn't really count, fourth contact they were getting the shit kicked out of them at every action until Crusher came up with the "shoot the sun" idea. Fifth contact, they bulldozed their way right through to Earth. Do I need to go on?
Dominion. First contact...a disaster, completely defensless. SEcond contanct....yeah, though luck, we made our shields work again, suck it dominion.
First contact complete disaster, lost a GCS, second contact complete disaster, lost Defiant. They didn't fix the shield problem until Sisko captured the bug in "The Ship", and even after that the Feds were getting steamrollered both in the early months of the war and in the lead-up to Sisko bringing the Romulans in.
Breen. Upsy daisy, they are shutting down our ships. WTF. A few weeks (months) later....."Please keep shooting your disabling beam while we don't give a damn and shoving a few quantums down your throat!"
A neat trick from an inferior species, not comparable to the overwhelming superiority in strategic mobility, stealth, transporter power and computer effects teh Voth have demonstrated.
We have seen far more potent stuff they were able to deal with.
Bollocks - the Voth have demonstrated abilities beyond any Trek power short of the Q. The Feds are outmatched.
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