Science to Command

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Re: Science to Command

Postby Mikey » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:37 am

Teaos wrote:Well he did design the Defiant.


Really? I thought that it was an extant design on which Starfleet had given up due to power issues, which he and O'Brien took on as a hobby and fixed due to the magical abilities of being series protagonists.

Anyway, M-A lists his last posting before command track as the USS Okinawa under Leyton, who promoted Sisko to XO, but we don't know from which department Sisko came.
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Re: Science to Command

Postby Teaos » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:39 am

I was under the impression he was involved in the design.
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Re: Science to Command

Postby Mikey » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:56 am

Teaos wrote:I was under the impression he was involved in the design.


It seems you are correct on two counts - he did study to become an engineer, and he did serve on the Defiant's design team... interestingly, however, the latter fact would have happened after he had become an XO and left any engineering department.
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Re: Science to Command

Postby Teaos » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:17 am

I think he went and designed the Defiant after Wolf 359 to get away from Starfleet and being an officer and to get revenge on the Borg.
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Re: Science to Command

Postby Sonic Glitch » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:55 am

Mikey wrote:
Teaos wrote:I was under the impression he was involved in the design.


It seems you are correct on two counts - he did study to become an engineer, and he did serve on the Defiant's design team... interestingly, however, the latter fact would have happened after he had become an XO and left any engineering department.

Arguably the team would likely need some command/operations level officers in charge while the engineers do their theory work and things. But I could also see the Sisko saying, "look I may be in command but I have some technical ideas here ... what we need is a really BFG." Also where do we learn that Sisko trained as an engineer?

On the general topic of people from other departments becoming commanders, we do have examples of people in non-operations departments achieving command rank. Scotty became a "captain of engineering" and McCoy became and admiral. And it seems Scotty had some command experience as we saw him take charge of the Enterprise more than once in TOS. For McCoy I think it's a little more believable that he rose through the ranks at Starfleet Medical and is more akin to the hospital director Teaos described: a senior, experienced doctor in administrative control of the hospital (or in this case department).

As for the paths captains take to command: I remember looking into U.S. Navy requirements and I'm pretty sure for things like commanding a nuclear ship even the captains are required to have extensive knowledge of the engineering, even if they weren't engineers before. In fact IIRC when someone comes up for a command position, or expresses interest in a command position, it's back to school for another year or two before they get it. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm working on really old information and unfortunately don't remember where I found it so I can't really check it). It is likely that all Starfleet officers of a certain rank/position have at least SOME command training, at least enough to allow them to take command during a shift or so, but if they want to qualify for command of a starship there is more specialized training involved, either back at the academy or being groomed as an XO (Riker, Spock, Sisko etc). It is possible Scotty was never interested in starship command and was content to remain in the Enigineering tract and was awarded the rank of captain for engineering. Dr. Crusher for example, or Capt. Janeway may have made the switch to the command tract or gone through additional training before becoming captain.
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Re: Science to Command

Postby Mikey » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:13 am

Sonic Glitch wrote:Also where do we learn that Sisko trained as an engineer?


DS9: "Homefront."

Sonic Glitch wrote: we do have examples of people in non-operations departments achieving command rank


#1 - I thought we were talking about achieving command, not achieving command rank.
#2 - Of course we do, that's the whole point. Except for Kim in a maybe-future and Data in a temporary case, we don't have any example of someone going from ops to skipper.

BTW, Scotty did become the captain of a boat, not just the rank of captain (TNG: "Relics.")
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Re: Science to Command

Postby Sonic Glitch » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:00 pm

Mikey wrote:
Sonic Glitch wrote: we do have examples of people in non-operations departments achieving command rank


#1 - I thought we were talking about achieving command, not achieving command rank.
#2 - Of course we do, that's the whole point. Except for Kim in a maybe-future and Data in a temporary case, we don't have any example of someone going from ops to skipper.

BTW, Scotty did become the captain of a boat, not just the rank of captain (TNG: "Relics.")

#1 - my apologies, I was using the two interchangeably. "Command rank" --> "a rank allowing them to command a starship" but I acknowledge that there is a difference between command rank and starship command, and I'm attempting to explain why.
#2 - I tend to lump helm and ops together. Actually, wouldn't it make more sense for a commander to come up through operations?
Did he? I thought he was still just "captain" scott. As far as I know there were no references to him having a command?
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Re: Science to Command

Postby Captain Seafort » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:18 pm

Mikey wrote:BTW, Scotty did become the captain of a boat, not just the rank of captain (TNG: "Relics.")


When? I don't recall him ever mentioning commanding his own ship. I always took his and McCoy's ranks to be within their own departments rather than command-track.
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Re: Science to Command

Postby RK_Striker_JK_5 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:31 pm

He... bought a boat in ST VI. Maybe Mikey just got the two mixed up/joined them together?
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Re: Science to Command

Postby Mikey » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:34 pm

Sonic Glitch wrote: I tend to lump helm and ops together.


You can if you like, but the show doesn't. There was no "ops" department in TOS-era or movie-era 'Trek: in TOS there was helm (which also controlled tac) and navigation in one; engineering, comms, and security in the other (which you could call ops if you wanted, but later ops didn't include engineering or security, and the show never named it as such.) In movie-era, there was helm/engineering (helm still controlled tac,) nav/comms, and security as a separate department.

Sonic Glitch wrote: Actually, wouldn't it make more sense for a commander to come up through operations?


Maybe not completely, but a fair bit of experience there would help.

Sonic Glitch wrote:Did he? I thought he was still just "captain" scott. As far as I know there were no references to him having a command?


In TNG: "Relics," I thought he made a passing reference to still being an engineer at heart, even though he was given command of a boat. Been a while, though, so I could be mistaken.
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Re: Science to Command

Postby Captain Seafort » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:57 pm

Mikey wrote:You can if you like, but the show doesn't. There was no "ops" department in TOS-era or movie-era 'Trek: in TOS there was helm (which also controlled tac) and navigation in one; engineering, comms, and security in the other (which you could call ops if you wanted, but later ops didn't include engineering or security, and the show never named it as such.)


I don't think the TNG goldshirts were ever officially called operations either. As for tactical, it seemed to hop between helm and navigation from episode to episode, so I assume there were dual controls.

In movie-era, there was helm/engineering (helm still controlled tac,) nav/comms, and security as a separate department.


The movie era had at least half a dozen different departments, going by colours.

In TNG: "Relics," I thought he made a passing reference to still being an engineer at heart, even though he was given command of a boat. Been a while, though, so I could be mistaken.


He mentioned being a Captain by rank, but not wanting to be anything but an engineer, but he never mentioned holding a command.
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Re: Science to Command

Postby Mikey » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:05 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:I don't think the TNG goldshirts were ever officially called operations either.


IIRC, Data was referred to as the "ops officer" or "operations officer," or somesuch, and I'm pretty sure Kim was as well.

Captain Seafort wrote:The movie era had at least half a dozen different departments, going by colours.


Indeed, I was just referencing the ones that were relevant to the point. In addition, as you mention, medical was separated from science; security was separate from everything else; comms and nav were separate from helm and engineering; cadets/middies had a separate color; paramilitary (or whatever the strike team behind Kirk at the opening of TFF was) had its own color; and even the waiters had their own "departmental" color.

Captain Seafort wrote:He mentioned being a Captain by rank, but not wanting to be anything but an engineer, but he never mentioned holding a command.


Yes, well, at my age, the memory starts to go next.
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Re: Science to Command

Postby D7_1991 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:47 am

Teaos

what do you mean general training before specializing, could you please explain this more?
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Re: Science to Command

Postby D7_1991 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:55 am

yes tsukiyumi i do recall hearing that. in the episodes homefront and paradise lost sisko recalled in a conversation with leyyon that when he was serving with him he saw potenial in sisko (who at the time was an engineer) command potential and gave him a promotion. to lieutenant commander.
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Re: Science to Command

Postby Andrew82 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:46 pm

In the alternate future in Timeless, Geordi commander the Challenger.
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