TR-116

[Teaos]

I personally think the TR-116 is one of the coolest weapons ever seen in trek.

Its the modified rifle that can see through walls and teleport its bullet through walls right next to the victims head.

I was a great idea that was shame fully never expanded on.

Just think of the fun you could have with just the bit that looks through walls.

[The Wormhole]

Awesome gun. Field of Fire was an excellent episode regardless, but that gun was extremely cool.

[Space Ghost]

Makes you wonder why they wouldn't develop something similar to fight the Borg. Hell, with the transporter it makes it the best sniper rifle ever!

[Sionnach Glic]

Perhaps the borg shields could stop it?

[Graham Kennedy]

Not only was it utterly cool, it would also have made an absolutely astoundingly effective combat weapon. Distributing it to the troops would have changed the entire way battles are fought.

Which is, I suspect, why we never saw it again.

[Captain Seafort]

Perhaps the borg shields could stop it?

Borg shields have a big problem with projectile weapons - see Picard's Tommy gun and Worf's sword thingy in FC. This makes sense given that they're dependent on frequency - solid objects don't have frequencies.

As a combat weapon I'd be doubtful about it - the sights and transporter would make it far more vulnerable to wear and tear than a simple design like the Kalashnikov.

[Sionnach Glic]

Note to self, engage brain.

In the presense of heavy jamming wouldn't the transporter be completely useless? It would still make a great sniper rifle though. And the advantages of being able to shoot targets without exposing yourself is obvious.

[Graham Kennedy]

Perhaps the borg shields could stop it?

Borg shields have a big problem with projectile weapons - see Picard's Tommy gun and Worf's sword thingy in FC. This makes sense given that they're dependent on frequency - solid objects don't have frequencies.

I get really tired of hearing this spoken like it is truth. It isn't.

First off, we have SEEN Borg shields stop kinetic impacts; Worf bounces off a Borg shield in Best of Both Worlds when he's trying to rescue Picard. The same thing happened to Data when he tried to escape on the E-E. So as a simple matter of fact, there is nothing stopping the Borg from stopping such impacts with shields.

Now, let's take your examples. Picard used bullets to kill precisely two Borg. We have seen phasers do that and more before the Borg adapted. So that doesn't prove anything.

The same could be said of Worf's Mek'Leth and Data's hand to hand.

However, even granted that, there is a reason why the Borg wouldn't WANT to stop KE impacts most times. They assimilate people through touching them; you wouldn't want KE shields getting in the way of that. So I submit that even if we postulate that KE impacts seem to do better than phasers (which they don't), then it's most likely because the Borg want it that way.

However, if this became the slightest bit of a real problem for them, if it became an actual threat rather than "well there goes another couple of drones, so what" - you could expect to see that change in an instant.

[Sionnach Glic]

Eh, I doubt the Feds are the only ones to ever try KE attacks against them so would they not be pre-adapted?
I'll have to look up more on this subject, perhaps this could be split to a different discussion thread so we wouldn't clutter up this one?

[Captain Seafort]

We've never seen Borg personal shields stop kinetic impacts. My examples were non-exhausive, as Species 8472 destroyed unknown numbers of drones in hand-to-hand combat (they've not demonstrated any hand-held energy weapon). Indeed conservation of momentum would make the usefulness of kinetic shields limited - the impact would rip loose the implants generating them, inflicting massive trauma.

[Sionnach Glic]

Just remembred, in Scorpion (Voyager) didn't a few S8472 manage to kill a whole heap o' borg in close quarters combat? Seeing as how the borg couldn't asimalate them, would it not make sense for them to start using KE shields then?
I may be wrong as I haven't seen that episode in a while...

[Graham Kennedy]

We've never seen Borg personal shields stop kinetic impacts. My examples were non-exhausive, as Species 8472 destroyed unknown numbers of drones in hand-to-hand combat (they've not demonstrated any hand-held energy weapon). Indeed conservation of momentum would make the usefulness of kinetic shields limited - the impact would rip loose the implants generating them, inflicting massive trauma.

And 8472 being able to do such in no way means that bullets and such would do the same; that's rather the point of 8472.

As for conservation of momentum, you make assumptions about how the implants are anchored in your statement. I could easily envisage a system that would distribute the momentum over the body; and bullets don't have near enough momentum to do much to a body.

All of which presupposes that conservation of momentum even applies to shields. Which, given that shields are basically magic, we can't know.

[Captain Seafort]

And 8472 being able to do such in no way means that bullets and such would do the same; that's rather the point of 8472.

Kinetic engergy is kinetic energy, no two ways about it.

As for conservation of momentum, you make assumptions about how the implants are anchored in your statement. I could easily envisage a system that would distribute the momentum over the body; and bullets don't have near enough momentum to do much to a body.

Bog-standard Borg, fine, the exoskeleton would distribute the impact around the entire body, and handguns would have little to no effect (MGs would be another matter - the muzzel velocity is much higher). The problem with this is 7 of 9. She demonstrated the ability in The Raven to use her personal shields despite being stripped of her exoskeleton. This demonstrates that the implants generating the shields are not part of that exoskeleton.

All of which presupposes that conservation of momentum even applies to shields. Which, given that shields are basically magic, we can't know.

If we start saying "we don't understand how they work, therefore it must be magic and the laws of physics don't apply" then we might as well give up the entire debate, as we''d have no basis for analysis.[/i][/quote]

[DBS]

We've never seen Borg personal shields stop kinetic impacts. My examples were non-exhausive, as Species 8472 destroyed unknown numbers of drones in hand-to-hand combat (they've not demonstrated any hand-held energy weapon). Indeed conservation of momentum would make the usefulness of kinetic shields limited - the impact would rip loose the implants generating them, inflicting massive trauma.

First off, we have SEEN Borg shields stop kinetic impacts; Worf bounces off a Borg shield in Best of Both Worlds when he's trying to rescue Picard. The same thing happened to Data when he tried to escape on the E-E.

I hate to go around saying "there must be a good reason for everything" since that pretty much makes talking about it moot, but maybe Borg can control their shields more or less individually. Suppose a drone is getting into a hand-to-hand fight with a crewman and wants to assimiliate him, the drone would not want to use a KE shield, and instead rely on the idea that Borg tend to be stronger to incapacitate the target. If that is standard procedure, then the times they are beaten in hand-to-hand are when they underestimate their target (Worf or Data)

[Sionnach Glic]

And 8472 being able to do such in no way means that bullets and such would do the same; that's rather the point of 8472.

Physics aren't my strong point so I'll leave the bullets to someone else.
8472's claws being able to injure them does indicate that things like blades and fists could as well. Unless there is evidence that their claws are significantly different from 'normal' creatures.

Hmm... perhaps they work like the shields from Dune? They might block high speed attacks (like bullets) but not slower moving things like fists and knives. Just a thought.