The Way of the Romulan.

Deep Space Nine

Re: The Way of the Romulan.

Postby Captain Seafort » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:09 pm

Teaos wrote:Few bigger, rather than many smaller. Easier to counter fewer attacks. The attacks would cause more damage but would be easier to respond to.


Great - bring as many ships as you want. It helps to have them all in the same place so you can smash the lot of them quickly.

Doesnt mean the Romulans arent equally crap. Federation is full of Vulcans who are Buddhist Romulans.


Sela was pretty confident that an entrenched Romulan force on Vulcan would be exceptionally difficult to dislodge, and neither Picard nor Data made any attempt to contradict her. The Romulans are as about as similar to to Vulcans as Chimpazees are similar to Bonobos

The only way the Romulans come close to matching the federation is with the advantage of cloak and sneak attacks. Take that advantage away and it would swing more in favor of the Federation.


That and the fact that their most commonly-seen warship can slap around the most powerful ship the Federation has.

So while the intial strike would be devestating maybe, the smaller numbers of ships and the inability to hold positions and occupy territory while cloaked would be much easier for them to be countered.


Bollocks. 1) We don't have solid numbers on the size of the Romulan fleet. That it's smaller than that of the Federation is a reasonable assumption, but by what degree is a complete unknown. 2) They can hold territory as well as any Fed ship. Better, indeed, as the fear of a cloaked ship would be as effective as the actual presence of one as a deterrent.

I would call the Cardasian ships pocket battleships more than cruisers, heavily armed and armored for their size.


A pocket battleship is a cruiser, and if you think they're "heavily armed and armoured" even for their size, I suggest you watch them in action again. In The Wounded they were completely ineffective against both the E-D and the Phoenix, even with their shields down.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: The Way of the Romulan.

Postby Coalition » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:52 am

I'd see the reason the Changeling used the Klingons is because the Klingons are more likely to 'scream and leap', while the Romulans are more 'stalk and pounce'. The Romulans would have sent in their people to check out the claim of the Detapa council being Changelings (or guided by them), while the Klingons hadn't had a good war in a while, so were eager for battle.

I expect the Romulan way of war to be clever, sneaky, and planned out well. They plot out your defenses beforehand, and then attack them all at once. The successive waves use the loss of the sensors to strike deeper, like a blitzkrieg. After their forces have run out, they return to their bases, watching to see what your reaction is, and probably taking the first few places as their new bases.

But they still have nothing on humans. Just ask Quark, and again, or Garak.
Relativity Calculator
My Nomination for "MVAM Critic Award" (But can it be broken into 3 separate pieces?)
Coalition
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 766
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:34 am
Location: Georgia, United States

Re: The Way of the Romulan.

Postby Teaos » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:11 pm

Great - bring as many ships as you want. It helps to have them all in the same place so you can smash the lot of them quickly.


By that logic they wouldnt be able to stand up to the Federation larger ships or anything, but we saw them hold up rather well in the Dominion war and a GCS certainly took them seriously. Suer they are not as powerful, but they are hardly push overs.

Sela was pretty confident that an entrenched Romulan force on Vulcan would be exceptionally difficult to dislodge, and neither Picard nor Data made any attempt to contradict her. The Romulans are as about as similar to to Vulcans as Chimpazees are similar to Bonobos


Pure speculation. I could walk into a bank with a gun and grab some hostages. The SWAT team would still be careful in dislodging me despite my total lack of weapons training.

V


Slap around is a bit much, the only times they screwed the E-D is when they got the first hit in. I think they over all seemed evenly matched.

Bollocks. 1) We don't have solid numbers on the size of the Romulan fleet. That it's smaller than that of the Federation is a reasonable assumption, but by what degree is a complete unknown. 2) They can hold territory as well as any Fed ship. Better, indeed, as the fear of a cloaked ship would be as effective as the actual presence of one as a deterrent.


You dont send a Battleship to hold a colony. The Romulans in this time frame didnt seem to have smaller ships. They could only position a D'Deridex, which is a big expensive ship. They wouldnt be able to post one in strategic locations and still have a attack fleet. In DS9 when we see the combined alliance fleet the Romulans seem to have maybe 3 dozen. THe Klingons seemed to have at least a couple hundred. A much better force to take an hold territory.

A pocket battleship is a cruiser, and if you think they're "heavily armed and armoured" even for their size, I suggest you watch them in action again. In The Wounded they were completely ineffective against both the E-D and the Phoenix, even with their shields down.


Huh never heard them refered to as a cruisers but I'll take your word for it since you are the expert :) I thought cruisers by definition had lighter armor to allow faster speed and pocket battleships had armor which slowed them down?
User avatar
Teaos
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14623
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:00 am
Location: Behind you!

Re: The Way of the Romulan.

Postby Reliant121 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:37 am

Pocket battleships, I believe though seafort is clearly a better source, were large cruisers. They had the guns and other assorted firepower of small battleships or battle cruisers but the armour was weaker, in order to preserve the speed of a cruiser.

On that note I find it here to see a Galor even close to a match to a GCS; at best an Akira.
"He was the best of us. They struck without provocation, there was no reason. Animals! Brutal! They deserve no mercy! Strike them down, follow them back to their base and kill all of them, all of them! No mercy!" - Delenn
User avatar
Reliant121
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 12066
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:00 pm
Location: Hampshire, UK

Re: The Way of the Romulan.

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:41 pm

Teaos wrote:By that logic they wouldnt be able to stand up to the Federation larger ships or anything, but we saw them hold up rather well in the Dominion war and a GCS certainly took them seriously. Suer they are not as powerful, but they are hardly push overs.


They're certainly pushovers - go and have a look at The Wounded again. Both the Enterprise and the Phoenix disabled or destroyed Galors with a few shots despite having no shields. The Duras sisters' BoP did more damage.

Pure speculation. I could walk into a bank with a gun and grab some hostages. The SWAT team would still be careful in dislodging me despite my total lack of weapons training.


True. And if you had an automatic weapon while the SWAT team only had sticks they'd be fucked.

The Romulans in this time frame didnt seem to have smaller ships.


They did indeed - the scout ship Jarok used to defect.

In DS9 when we see the combined alliance fleet the Romulans seem to have maybe 3 dozen. THe Klingons seemed to have at least a couple hundred. A much better force to take an hold territory.


The Romulans were consistently depicted as an equal partner (or threat) in the alliance. The Klingons were certainly more numerous, but their ships were far less powerful.

Huh never heard them refered to as a cruisers but I'll take your word for it since you are the expert :) I thought cruisers by definition had lighter armor to allow faster speed and pocket battleships had armor which slowed them down?


Pocket battleships were effectively overgunned heavy cruisers. Versailles limited the German navy's heaviest ships to 11" guns, the same as an early dreadnought, but to 10,000 tons displacement, the same as a cruiser under the Washington Naval Treaty. The Germans naturally went to the limit on both. In the event the later Hipper-class 8" cruisers were probably the more powerful ships - faster, just as well armoured and with a heavier time-averaged broadside.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: The Way of the Romulan.

Postby Teaos » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:59 pm

They're certainly pushovers - go and have a look at The Wounded again. Both the Enterprise and the Phoenix disabled or destroyed Galors with a few shots despite having no shields. The Duras sisters' BoP did more damage.


And in the Battle to retake DS9 the Cardassian portion of the fleet went toe to toe with a massive Federation fleet and held them off until they were over run by the flanking Klingons.

They did indeed - the scout ship Jarok used to defect.


I hardly count that as a ship. Thats a glorified run about not a front line vessel, you would never put that into fleet maneuvers.

The Romulans were consistently depicted as an equal partner (or threat) in the alliance. The Klingons were certainly more numerous, but their ships were far less powerful.


The were portrayed as partners and useful but I would never assume they are equal, The Klingons and the Federation seemed much more able, it seemed as though they were only brought in to distract the Dominion.

Pocket battleships were effectively overgunned heavy cruisers. Versailles limited the German navy's heaviest ships to 11" guns, the same as an early dreadnought, but to 10,000 tons displacement, the same as a cruiser under the Washington Naval Treaty. The Germans naturally went to the limit on both. In the event the later Hipper-class 8" cruisers were probably the more powerful ships - faster, just as well armoured and with a heavier time-averaged broadside.


Ah interesting, I though it was more the Germans trying to get the biggest bang for their buck. Build more smaller powerful ships for the same cost as a few Hood style British ships.
User avatar
Teaos
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14623
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:00 am
Location: Behind you!

Re: The Way of the Romulan.

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:09 pm

Teaos wrote:And in the Battle to retake DS9 the Cardassian portion of the fleet went toe to toe with a massive Federation fleet and held them off until they were over run by the flanking Klingons.


A fleet primarily comprised of ships the same size as the Galor or smaller. Against an Ex it's survivable, and against a Miranda it's clearly superior, but against a Fed heavy they need to hunt in packs to stand any chance.

I hardly count that as a ship. Thats a glorified run about not a front line vessel, you would never put that into fleet maneuvers.


If you're discounting the scout as a front-line ship then you must also discount the BoP - they're about the same size.

The were portrayed as partners and useful but I would never assume they are equal, The Klingons and the Federation seemed much more able, it seemed as though they were only brought in to distract the Dominion.


On the contrary - Sloane considered them to be the Federation's key rival for post-war dominance of the Alpha Quadrant, and one against whom every small advantage would be vital. That's a description of a great power of equal or near-equal strength.

Ah interesting, I though it was more the Germans trying to get the biggest bang for their buck. Build more smaller powerful ships for the same cost as a few Hood style British ships.


Not at all - the Germans always went for the biggest and most powerful ship they could get away with - first the pocket battleships (nominally 10,000 tons, actually a bit bigger), then the Scharnhorsts (nominally 26,000 tons, actually pushing 35,000), then the Bismarcks (nominally 35,000 tons, actually over 50,000 at full load).
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: The Way of the Romulan.

Postby Teaos » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:33 pm

If you're discounting the scout as a front-line ship then you must also discount the BoP - they're about the same size.


Not at all they fill totally different rolls, the BoP is a hunter killer scout with a good armament for its size and clearly intended for combat, the scout is essentially a runabout. The fact we never see them in fleet actions but we do see BoP's shows there wernt considered war ships. It like saying you discount the Ex as a ship because it is the same size as the Olympic which clearly isnt a warship.

On the contrary - Sloane considered them to be the Federation's key rival for post-war dominance of the Alpha Quadrant, and one against whom every small advantage would be vital. That's a description of a great power of equal or near-equal strength.


I was always under the impression we was speaking politically not in terms of power. The Klingons arent exactly political giants.
User avatar
Teaos
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14623
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:00 am
Location: Behind you!

Re: The Way of the Romulan.

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:22 pm

Teaos wrote:Not at all they fill totally different rolls, the BoP is a hunter killer scout with a good armament for its size and clearly intended for combat, the scout is essentially a runabout. The fact we never see them in fleet actions but we do see BoP's shows there wernt considered war ships.


There's absolutely no evidence of what armament the scouts have. They might be completely unarmed or they might be able to have a BoP for breakfast. The fact that they're never seen in fleet actions means that the Romulans don't consider them suitable for fleet actions. Frankly, neither are the BoP or the Miranda, but they're because removing the former would leave the Klingons with a very small battle fleet, and the Federation were in the shit a scrabbling about for every ship they could find.

I was always under the impression we was speaking politically not in terms of power.


The two are synonyms. Remember what Clauswitz and Mao had to say about politics.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: The Way of the Romulan.

Postby Teaos » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:30 pm

There's absolutely no evidence of what armament the scouts have. They might be completely unarmed or they might be able to have a BoP for breakfast. The fact that they're never seen in fleet actions means that the Romulans don't consider them suitable for fleet actions. Frankly, neither are the BoP or the Miranda, but they're because removing the former would leave the Klingons with a very small battle fleet, and the Federation were in the shit a scrabbling about for every ship they could find.


In a fight for survival of the quadrant you dont hold back a class of vessel because it doesnt meet your standards of a warship, you hold it back if it is totally inappropriate.

The two are synonyms. Remember what Clauswitz and Mao had to say about politics.


I forget how many tanks Gandi had?
User avatar
Teaos
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14623
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:00 am
Location: Behind you!

Re: The Way of the Romulan.

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:36 pm

Teaos wrote:In a fight for survival of the quadrant you dont hold back a class of vessel because it doesnt meet your standards of a warship, you hold it back if it is totally inappropriate.


You don't hold it back - you employ it in an appropriate manner. There were no Flower-class corvettes at any of the fleet actions of the war, but they were among the most important ships in the allied navies.

I forget how many tanks Gandi had?


What's that prat got to do with the discussion?
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: The Way of the Romulan.

Postby Teaos » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:45 pm

You don't hold it back - you employ it in an appropriate manner. There were no Flower-class corvettes at any of the fleet actions of the war, but they were among the most important ships in the allied navies.


We only saw it deployed as a shuttle thus we can assume thats what it was used for.

What's that prat got to do with the discussion?


Pointing out Military power and political power are not as synonyms as you seem to think.
User avatar
Teaos
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14623
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:00 am
Location: Behind you!

Re: The Way of the Romulan.

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:52 pm

Teaos wrote:We only saw it deployed as a shuttle thus we can assume thats what it was used for.


No, we saw it chased across the Neutral Zone by a D'Deridex, and withstanding direct hits from its main armament. We never saw deployed from a larger craft (as shuttles, by definition, are), indeed the Enterprise left it floating alongside without even attempting to bring it aboard, we were never told what it's primary role was, and Jarok took steps to ensure that the Feds never found out. We also later saw the science vessel variant conducting independent operations.

Pointing out Military power and political power are not as synonyms as you seem to think.


When discussing nation states, yes they are.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: The Way of the Romulan.

Postby Teaos » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:13 pm

No, we saw it chased across the Neutral Zone by a D'Deridex, and withstanding direct hits from its main armament. We never saw deployed from a larger craft (as shuttles, by definition, are), indeed the Enterprise left it floating alongside without even attempting to bring it aboard, we were never told what it's primary role was, and Jarok took steps to ensure that the Feds never found out. We also later saw the science vessel variant conducting independent operations.


We have seen runabouts withstand direct hits from capital ships as well, doesn't prove anything. As for not bringing it on board, they could have used their brains for once and decided it was safer not to bring it on board their vessel.

When discussing nation states, yes they are.


It is certainly a component yes, but not the only one, nor the dominant one. It is but one of many facets to political power.
User avatar
Teaos
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14623
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:00 am
Location: Behind you!

Re: The Way of the Romulan.

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:45 pm

Teaos wrote:We have seen runabouts withstand direct hits from capital ships as well


Source?

As for not bringing it on board, they could have used their brains for once and decided it was safer not to bring it on board their vessel.


Don't be ridiculous - this is Starfleet we're talking about. :P

It is certainly a component yes, but not the only one, nor the dominant one. It is but one of many facets to political power.


I'm willing to concede on the first point, but certainly not on the second. A nation's ability to impose itself politically on a given region is predicated on its military strength. Right now, the dominant industrial power on the planet is China, and the key financial centre is London, but the superpower is the US, because of its vastly superior military strength. The changeover will only come if and when the US either accepts that it isn't the top dog any more, or it picks a fight with China and gets thumped.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

PreviousNext

Return to DS9

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron