SFDebris: The Visitor

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SFDebris: The Visitor

Post by Captain Seafort »

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Re: SFDebris: The Visitor

Post by katefan »

Not a fan of this episode. I was not overly impressed with it when it aired, even less so as the series went on.

So The Dominion never invaded the Alpha Quadrant, that is what the writers were implying in this new timeline. That seems highly unlikely. It just shows the writers had no long term plans for the Dominion or Gul Dukat, and wouldn't it have been smarter to have shown a new Dax? Instead I believe they even say Jadzia and Julian are married (Granted, I could be wrong on that score). If they are married then somehow Sisko's existence nixed that relationship?

So I guess a 6/10 as a stand alone episode, 3/10 as a part of the whole.
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Re: SFDebris: The Visitor

Post by McAvoy »

It is certainly possible that the Dominion never invaded the Alpha Quadrant without Dukat giving them a place to set up their fleet. Perhaps Dukat was killed by the Klingons early on. Who knows.

I was and still impressed with the episode.
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Re: SFDebris: The Visitor

Post by RK_Striker_JK_5 »

I loved and love this episode.
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Re: SFDebris: The Visitor

Post by Deepcrush »

If at some point the UFP stopped running into the G-Quad and stopped pissing off the Founders, its rather likely they'd have just left everything alone. The Klingons don't really care to much about "making friends or exploring" so with them in charge of the station. The Dominion was more the likely happy that no one was bugging them.
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Re: SFDebris: The Visitor

Post by katefan »

But by implication then if Sisko stayed dead then the war did not happen. If the war did not happen all those lives would not have been lost. This episode then suggests that Sisko is entirely responsible for the Dominion War and all those deaths are on his hands.
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Re: SFDebris: The Visitor

Post by Atekimogus »

That was one of the best episodes of DS9 and honestly, it never even occured to me that Sisko might or might not be responsible for the Dominion War. (Mainly because iirc there wasn't a DW when it aired, so it is only with hindsight that we might say that).

Imho the episode was purely about Jake and Sisko and the focus was so much on their relationship that even with hindsight I find it hard to fault the episode for not mentioning the DW. It's just not about that!

That being said, I seem to remember that they HAD to withdraw from bajor for some reason so while the DW might not have happened I wouldn't say that it means it is automatically the better timeline. Maybe the DW was necessary for the UFP so that they not get creamed by the Borg later on in a few decades, who knows?

Maybe the fact that the DW never happened in this timeline had nothing to do with Sisko not being there but simply the though luck that Dukat had an aneurysm while taking a crap on his Bird of Prey.

In short.....way to overthink something imho :mrgreen:
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Re: SFDebris: The Visitor

Post by Monroe »

This is my favorite episode.

And does this mean Sisko is blamed for the Dominion War? He did mine the wormhole... just saying...
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Re: SFDebris: The Visitor

Post by Deepcrush »

The war was coming at that point regardless if he mined the Wormhole or not. The issue was that the Dominion repeatedly told the UFP and others to stay out of the GQ. But the Federation being so high and mighty just ignored this because it didn't suit their manifest destiny ideal. The problem wasn't Sisko but as Eddington stated, and shortly there after Sisko himself, the Federation as a whole. They had gotten to the point where much of the Federation couldn't believe that anyone wouldn't want to be a part of them or live their way of life. Its almost comical in how stuck up the UFP is at that point.

Founders - "Stay out of the GQ, it belongs to us and you aren't welcome."
UFP - "No its okay, we're going to start colonizing here and telling people to turn against you. Don't worry."
Founders - "Did you not hear us, go away and leave us alone."
UFP - "Oh look a bunch of worlds that we could use, GREAT FOR US!"
Founders - "No, those are our worlds and you can't have them."
UFP - "Oh its okay, we want them and we'll make them look pretty."

To be fair, the Dominion waited two years before really just getting pissed off with everyone and saying to hell with it, lets fight. Try to think how well the US or UK would handle someone just landing on their shores and claiming county after county for their own use. How many hours would it take for the war to start, not even days let alone years. The Founders were left facing a problem, a group that had every intention of expanding regardless of the what the natives think. This left the Founders with two options, fight or watch their domain over run by these arrogant outsiders. Its not to far off from a lot of Earth's real history. The founders were brought in as the villians, but like so much of DS9 and TOS, things were not as they always appeared. The Founders did evil things but to keep to a greater good as they saw it. While the UFP was happy to just reach out and take what they wanted when they felt they should be allowed to.
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Re: SFDebris: The Visitor

Post by Mikey »

Well, it's all point-of-view, isn't it? The Feds saw a bunch of populations that were seemingly being mistreated and oppressed - the Teplans, e.g., - and decided (as is the UFP's way) to bring the light and truth of the UFP over there. It's sort of creepy how blurry the line is between the Founders being defenders of their nation, or being maniacs intent on genocide of the solids, but it's that blurry nonetheless.
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Re: SFDebris: The Visitor

Post by Deepcrush »

Considering that the Founders have the ability to commit genocide and never acted upon it. Instead looking to enforce control over populations rather then burning them from history. Its not so much a blurry line as a brick wall. They can be pushed to that point, but damn does it seem to take a lot to do it.
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Re: SFDebris: The Visitor

Post by Mikey »

I could have sworn I've heard a number of occasions that the Founders were intent on the destruction or enslavement of all solids, but maybe I missed that season or two of DS9.
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Re: SFDebris: The Visitor

Post by Atekimogus »

Mikey wrote:I could have sworn I've heard a number of occasions that the Founders were intent on the destruction or enslavement of all solids, but maybe I missed that season or two of DS9.
Well that may be up to interpretation, they DID however have no problem making an example of populations that didn't bow to their rule like in the one episode where they practically wiped out a planet with a virus, if not for Bashirs intervention.

That being said imho Deepcrush makes some very good points however I would like to point out that it's not as seemingly easy as he paints it.

First, the GQ is HUGE. Having no clear idea of the layout of the land so to speak if I were the UFP I too would probably NOT take the word of the pretty much unknown "Dominion" that all the stuff belongs to them there. There were plenty of people not belonging to the Dominion coming through the wormhole (like seen in all seasons prior to the DW-arc) and having one group saying "STOP, noone comes in here" I can see the UFP saying "Screw you, we are just exploring anyhow". (Afaik there weren't any UFP colonies on the other side, just a Bajoran colony).

Partly this is the Dominions fault and their lack of government so to speak. There was never an emissary sent to the UFP or some offical to deal with the UFP saying, look, the systems XYZ belong to us, you stay out of it. If so, they sure would have respected those limits. (Heck in TNG they moved whole colonies a couple of times when they discovered that they had no right to them).

And at the time Weyoun finally DID show up in an ambassadorial capacity, the show was already pretty much over and the conquest of the AQ already agreed upon.

All they EVER got was a declaration rendering the whole GQ tabu for them. From a group noone knew anything about except that they seem to form a loose congomerate of planets, with no obvious governing body etc. Heck, the Karemma (no idea how to spell it, they guys dealing with quark) were members and NEVER EVER saw someone from the Dominion, they made all their dealings with a subspace relay. For all the UFP knew they could be dealing with a supercomputer in dire need of Kirk-like destruction.

In short, what they got from the Dominion was not enough to make them heed their tabu of the GQ and the Dominion went from:
"Stay out"
"Sure, sure....WHO are you again? We head some rumours, are you those guys?"

to..."WAAAAAGGGGHHHHH" with no steps inbetween. And even if, declaring a whole quadrant belonging to one if that is obviously not the case reeks of religous fanaticsm (all you can see is made by god, we are the children of god, therefore all you can see belongs to us) and the UFP was quite right imho to ignore it.
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