Breen Attack on Earth

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McAvoy
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Breen Attack on Earth

Post by McAvoy »

This occured to me while talking about the Breen attack on Earth, what if the damage we saw on San Francisco was bleed through damage? What if the Breen attack was so fierce that the planetary (or local) shields were overwhelmed and allowed a portion of enemy fire to bleed through to hit the city?

The explanation would explain the very minimal damage done to the city relative to even low or moderate estimates of Trek firepower since even low estimates should not see buildings damaged but wiped out or at worse look like Hiroshima.

EDIT: One problem I see is that in previous cases where we saw bleed through damage while shields are up, the distance between the hull and the shield would not be nearly as great as a planetary/local shield. I doubt there would be a conformal shield type, so a bubble shield of sufficient height to clear buildings, elevations and the Golden Gate Bridge would be required. So how much would those shields dissipate enemy weapons fire?
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Re: Breen Attack on Earth

Post by Graham Kennedy »

Could be. No real way to know.
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Re: Breen Attack on Earth

Post by Teaos »

The explanation that seems to make partial sense is the golden gate bridge and buildings is that they all have insanely powerful SIFs powered by the planetary power grid making it several orders of magnitude more powerful than ship SIFs.
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Re: Breen Attack on Earth

Post by Mikey »

Unfortunately, we can't definitively say "yea" or "nay" to the bleed-through idea. Unless, of course, we've ever had a canon statement as to whether or not there are such things as planetary shields in place.
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Re: Breen Attack on Earth

Post by Captain Seafort »

I doubt it - this is the TNG era. Even during TOS we never heard of any combat-grade planetary shielding.

Given the evidence available the most likely scenario is that what we're seeing is damage from direct weapon hits. Given that Starship weapons would flatten most of the bay area, what we're probably seeing is the effects of a fighter strafing run, with the larger ships intercepted and destroyed out of range of the planet.
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Re: Breen Attack on Earth

Post by stitch626 »

If we knew anything about the Breen fleet (don't remember well enough personally), this would go to show the effectiveness of the Earth defense forces.
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Re: Breen Attack on Earth

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Captain Seafort wrote:I doubt it - this is the TNG era. Even during TOS we never heard of any combat-grade planetary shielding.

Given the evidence available the most likely scenario is that what we're seeing is damage from direct weapon hits. Given that Starship weapons would flatten most of the bay area, what we're probably seeing is the effects of a fighter strafing run, with the larger ships intercepted and destroyed out of range of the planet.
Makes sense, but the only ones to show a active use in fighters are the Federation.
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Re: Breen Attack on Earth

Post by Graham Kennedy »

stitch626 wrote:If we knew anything about the Breen fleet (don't remember well enough personally), this would go to show the effectiveness of the Earth defense forces.
The Breen did have their energy damping weapon at the time, so actually I'd say Earth's defences did pretty well to hammer the fleet that hit Earth as much as they did.

The Breen always struck me as a bit of an empty force... they were introduced as if their fleet was going to be some great game changer, but it seemed mostly that it was strong only because they had their funky power drainer. Once that was neutralised they never seemed to present a real threat again.
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Re: Breen Attack on Earth

Post by Jim »

Did any races have planetary bombardment weapons? If they were just using ship-to-ship weapons then I would not expect too much damage. More a terror/scare tactic than anything meant to do physical harm.
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Re: Breen Attack on Earth

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Jim wrote:If they were just using ship-to-ship weapons then I would not expect too much damage.
Agreed, if by "not too much damage" you mean "looks like a nuke's hit it". Their ship-to-ship weapons are kiloton range.
McAvoy wrote:Makes sense, but the only ones to show a active use in fighters are the Federation.
Not true - the Romulans have their Scorpions and the Klingons have their BoP-lookalike assuming the WotW scaling is to be believed.
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Re: Breen Attack on Earth

Post by Jim »

But would it directly translate? Sort of like the Ion Cannon in SW... it wouldn't do much damage to a structure or to the dirt/land itself...
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Re: Breen Attack on Earth

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Jim wrote:But would it directly translate? Sort of like the Ion Cannon in SW... it wouldn't do much damage to a structure or to the dirt/land itself...
You're still dumping a shitload of energy into the terrain. If anything, the fact that phasers and disruptors induce a chain reaction in the materials they hit would make the damage even worse. Torpedoes, of course, would have exactly the same effect as a nuke of equal yield.
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Re: Breen Attack on Earth

Post by McAvoy »

Captain Seafort wrote:
Jim wrote:If they were just using ship-to-ship weapons then I would not expect too much damage.
Agreed, if by "not too much damage" you mean "looks like a nuke's hit it". Their ship-to-ship weapons are kiloton range.
Kiloton range?
McAvoy wrote:Makes sense, but the only ones to show a active use in fighters are the Federation.
Not true - the Romulans have their Scorpions and the Klingons have their BoP-lookalike assuming the WotW scaling is to be believed.
True. But those Breen ships have a distinct lack of a shuttle/fighter bay. It could be there of course since not all hanger bays should look the same. But also the Breen ship shape makes for a lack hanger bay space for a useful number of fighters and shuttles.
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Re: Breen Attack on Earth

Post by Captain Seafort »

McAvoy wrote:Kiloton range?
Yep. In this case either per shot firepower between 1 and 1000 kT, or continuous fire with a power output of between those figures per second.
True. But those Breen ships have a distinct lack of a shuttle/fighter bay.
On the contrary.

Look at the forward end of the upper hull - that looks like a shuttlebay door to me.
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Re: Breen Attack on Earth

Post by Coalition »

I'd settle for the Breen using shuttles for the attack, if they don't have dedicated fighters.

The fun part is when the energy dampener was used, it was a surprise when used at the Chintoka system. So when the Breen hit Earth, they did not use their energy dampener equipped ships (otherwise there would have been notes about a strange weapon removed from the Breen ships, and it wasn't used in the attack). So now that the Breen have revealed their energy dampener weapon, what are they now hiding?

As to the energy dampener itself, look at the timeline:
Episode 7x20: The Changing Face of Evil (Energy dampener used)
Episode 7x21: When it Rains (Klingon ships are the only ones that can face the energy dissipator)
Episode 7x22: Tacking into the Wind (Dominion ship with Energy weapon is stolen)
Episode 7x24: The Dogs of War (Dominion notes that the Federation has countered the energy dissipating weapon)

In only three episodes a new weapon is introduced, and two episodes later it is handled (technically 7x23 could occur at the same time as others, though it required someone to arrive at DS9 from Section 31, adding to the time frame). What I haven't found yet is the stardates for stuff in those episodes, so we can get an idea of the time frame involved. As a rough pattern, Kira has to be escorted from DS9 to Cardassia prime in episode7x21, so that means that episode has to go on for a time.

This means there were battles going on that are barely mentioned. Those battles require ships ot travel back and forth, again time which isn't seen. We had no scale to measure how long it took them to go from energy dissipator observation in 7x20, to theories to choose from in 7x22, to equipping the ships enough to be noticed in 7x24.

As to kiloton range, photorps, according to the tech manual, are megaton range weapons. So smaller weapons are distinctly possible.

What I'd picture is the Breen ships attacking the assembly yards in orbit, plus any mining operations on Mercury, plus antimatter refining centers, in an attempt to kill Starfleet's industrial base. The shuttles attacking SF would be an attempt to hit Starfleet HQ, killing cadets and admirals. The shuttles were the only thing available, as everything else was going to hit the industrial centers in the Sol system. So lots of Starbases firing shots everywhere to damage Breen ships, local starships having to leave a starbase unsupported to protect the antimatter refining array near Mercury, etc.

It would have been wonderful to watch. From the strategic view of the system, to the tactical views of the stations showing shield, power, and weapon statuses, to shots of ships and yards being blown up all over the solar system with recognizable planets in the background. Imagine a fight taking place, but with Jupiter's spot in the background, driving home exactly where the battle is taking place. Ships dogfighting in Saturn's rings, and after the battle we see swaths through the rings showing how even nature was harmed as a result.
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