Kira on Defiant

[Deepcrush]

Yes, even with that qualifier. In that case, she should have been a strategic attache, guide, or whatever you want to call her - not part of the chain of command. When the Special Forces dropped into Dien Bien Phu, the used an awful lot of local help - but that didn't mean that any local South Vietnamese guerilla with a knowledge of the lay of the land was given an erstwhile lieutenancy, did it?

IIRC, the SVA did in fact have officers and did in fact command operations. The joint-command structure designs of the time are still a part of AIT for Marines.

Also, Kira wasn't given a rank... she already had one.

See above. The fact that she was 2iC isn't a reason, it's a symptom - and one that shouldn't have happened. 2iC of the station? Sure, one could even make the argument that a Bajoran should have been in command. Of the Defiant? No way.

So, a Bajoran officer aboard a Bajoran station in Bajoran space with a Bajoran crew under Bajoran authority with UFP aid at the request of the Bajoran government being given a 2iC position aboard a ship operating in said Bajoran space... and the problem with the Bajorans having someone there with a command position is what again?

If Sisko, the CO of the station (on loan) decides that his 2iC of the station should also have a chance of command of the Warship (operating in said space) but still places her with a fully SF crew. Not really a conflict of interest short of the argument of "SF doesn't believe in joint-ops".

[Captain Seafort]

I do agree, however, that knowledge of UFP tech had NOTHING to do with whether Kira should have been allowed to command the Defiant.

On the contrary. Whether or not she was sufficiently up to speed on Starfleet technology and operating procedures are the only issues that should be an outright bar to her serving on the Defiant, and part of her chain of command.

[Deepcrush]

True, a basic understanding of the material and personnel in use is an absolute requirement. While you don't have to be the perfect expert, she would need to know what is or isn't acceptable. Of course having someone like Dax there to be her adviser for when Sisko isn't there is good.

[McAvoy]

True, a basic understanding of the material and personnel in use is an absolute requirement. While you don't have to be the perfect expert, she would need to know what is or isn't acceptable. Of course having someone like Dax there to be her adviser for when Sisko isn't there is good.

The other thing is that she is a ground pounder with adminstrative abilities. I doubt she possesses the tactical knowledge to command the Defiant as a warship through combat.

[Deepcrush]

While the bulk of her experience is on the ground, she's by no means a gropo. We saw in season 1 that she has flight combat experience while engaging the Circle Cult on Bajor. We've seen she's rather effective at commanding the Station itself and we saw nothing to say that she had to be trained for the duty when the UFP showed up. We've also seen that the Bajoran Militia doesn't really have a solid divide between Surface and Aerospace forces. Its likely that she was the best person they had available at the time. Part of dealing with joint-ops and exchange programs is that sometimes you end up with subpar officers when operating in areas they aren't used to.

[Mikey]

the SVA did in fact have officers and did in fact command operations. The joint-command structure designs of the time are still a part of AIT for Marines.

Indeed. They didn't have people with offices in the U.S. Army, SOCOM, or MARSOC, though, which is more to the point I was making.

Also, Kira wasn't given a rank... she already had one.

She had a rank in the Bajoran military, not in Starfleet. A captain in the USN can't walk onto a British warship and assume that he's the skipper of the boat, can he?

So, a Bajoran officer aboard a Bajoran station in Bajoran space with a Bajoran crew under Bajoran authority with UFP aid at the request of the Bajoran government being given a 2iC position aboard a ship operating in said Bajoran space... and the problem with the Bajorans having someone there with a command position is what again?

As I've ALREADY said, I have no problem with a Bajoran officer being 2iC of DS9, or even in command of it. I wouldn't even have a problem with her as an attache on the Defiant. Her official relationship with Starfleet is, however, less than that of a civilian UFP citizen - which doesn't lend to her being afforded any sort of position in the Defiant's chain of command.

I do agree, however, that as far as expertise alone she would have been qualified to serve on the staff of the Defiant though not, perhaps, to skipper it.

[Deepcrush]

Indeed. They didn't have people with offices in the U.S. Army, SOCOM, or MARSOC, though, which is more to the point I was making.

Your point is mute since they did have operational commands. Just like the Bajoran Militia has its own command structure. Also, just like with the SVA where US forces had shared operations, there's nothing in any standard be it moral or legal to say that an exchanged officer shouldn't be counted for their rank when part of an exchange program.

She had a rank in the Bajoran military, not in Starfleet. A captain in the USN can't walk onto a British warship and assume that he's the skipper of the boat, can he?

Well lucky for us that Kira wasn't a captain walking onto a ship assuming anything. She was the 2iC to the ship's captain, there for if he's not there then she's in command.

As I've ALREADY said, I have no problem with a Bajoran officer being 2iC of DS9, or even in command of it. I wouldn't even have a problem with her as an attache on the Defiant. Her official relationship with Starfleet is, however, less than that of a civilian UFP citizen - which doesn't lend to her being afforded any sort of position in the Defiant's chain of command.

Yes, you've said it... several times, and I can accept your opinion on it. But its still wrong. First off saying that her relationship with SF is less then that of a civilian. Because I'm sure SF lends command of one of their warships to someone who is "less then a civilian". That's just stupid. Second, she's the 2iC under the Defiant's captain, there for her exact position is to be in command when he isn't there.

When you are running an exchange program. You can't just sit on a high chair and say "we get to command you but you get to say nothing back." Even more so, the pure bigotry needed for SF to bring a warship into Bajoran space and then disband the Bajoran Liaison Officer from her post because... "She's less then a civilian" would only get the UFP booted off the station. Finally it would require Sisko to have zero faith in Kira or her ability to command, something that he never displayed. So again we have no reason be it moral, legal or ranked as to why the 2iC should in fact not be in command in the CO isn't present.

I do agree, however, that as far as expertise alone she would have been qualified to serve on the staff of the Defiant though not, perhaps, to skipper it.

Well, expertise wise. She's an enlisted officer, has served aboard starships (both UFP and BM), has an active command status aboard an active station, battle experience in the region and likely enemies with a basic understanding of the operation standards and technology of the Federation. What about that demotes her from her position of 2iC?

[Mikey]

the Bajoran Militia has its own command structure.

Bingo! Thanks for making my point more explicitly for me (my emphasis.)

Also, just like with the SVA where US forces had shared operations, there's nothing in any standard be it moral or legal to say that an exchanged officer shouldn't be counted for their rank when part of an exchange program.

Can you:
a) cite for me an example of when a soldier (enlisted or officer) from one nation's armed service was afforded an office in another nation's armed service without somehow becoming a member of that second nation's armed service? You may very well know of such an example, and I'd appreciate the edification.
b) likewise cite for me when it was stated that Kira was part of a program which would afford her the privilege of having her rank apply to an armed service of which she wasn't a part, belonging to a national-type organization of which she wasn't a citizen?

She was the 2iC to the ship's captain, there for if he's not there then she's in command.

Yes, I know what 2iC means, as I wrote that in my own posts. The difference AS REGARDS THIS POINT is cosmetic, or at least immaterial to the discussion. If it helps you to discern that idea, you may read my post to say "XO" instead of "skipper" and it would have the same concrete meaning.

Because I'm sure SF lends command of one of their warships to someone who is "less then a civilian". That's just stupid.

I agree that it's stupid. That's why I'm saying how much I disagree with the policy of letting someone who is not even a citizen of the UFP be the 2iC of a Federation starship.

Well, expertise wise. She's an enlisted officer, has served aboard starships (both UFP and BM), has an active command status aboard an active station, battle experience in the region and likely enemies with a basic understanding of the operation standards and technology of the Federation. What about that demotes her from her position of 2iC?

Absolutely nothing about THAT POINT disqualifies her for the position of 2iC. You may notice in the very passage of mine which you quoted that I said, "As far as expertise alone she would have been qualified to serve on the staff of the Defiant though not, perhaps, to skipper it."

[katefan]

I think when it comes to this argument that we have to keep something very important in mind. These are science fiction military organizations based only partly on real world counterparts, and thus trying to use real world analogies to make or break an argument is going to be problematic. There are five branches of the military in the United States, for example, but it appears there is only one now in the Star Trek universe. Changes then naturally would have been made to reflect that, and a certain amount of flexibility comes into play.

A good example? Ensign Ro. How does a Bajoran, who is from a planet outside of the Federation, become a Federation officer? Worf I can see; he was adopted. But Ro Laren? Hmmm, very questionable.

Kira serving as commander of the Defiant? I never had a problem with it. I always assumed Sisko said to his superior officer, "I have this cool ship, I need a first officer. Major Kira is pretty kick ass and trustworthy." His CO probably said something like, "Well, normally I have a problem with something like that, but you are Ben Sisko. Okay."

Seriously, this is the same military that keeps Harry Kim an ensign for seven years and promotes Janeway to Admiral. I think Kira being made XO of the Defiant is the least of their possibly questionable decisions.

[Mikey]

You're right - it is a flawed analogy, as has been seen many times in the past. It is, however, the only frame of reference we have. This is also an analogy that works both positively and negatively; one could as easily say, "A modern RL military does things *this* way, and I don't like it, so I'm glad Starfleet doesn't do things that way."

You're also right in saying that there are other questionable decisions in the case histories - Ro Laren being an excellent further example of what I'm trying to say. Other, perhaps more egregious, questionable decisions do not however mitigate a subsequent one.

[McAvoy]

A good example? Ensign Ro. How does a Bajoran, who is from a planet outside of the Federation, become a Federation officer? Worf I can see; he was adopted. But Ro Laren? Hmmm, very questionable.

You are forgetting about Nog.

[Captain Seafort]

a) cite for me an example of when a soldier (enlisted or officer) from one nation's armed service was afforded an office in another nation's armed service without somehow becoming a member of that second nation's armed service? You may very well know of such an example, and I'd appreciate the edification.

About a year ago there was a series on over here about a deployment HMS Manchester made to the Caribbean. Her operations officer at the time was an exchange officer (either USN or RAN - I can't remember the details).

A good example? Ensign Ro. How does a Bajoran, who is from a planet outside of the Federation, become a Federation officer? Worf I can see; he was adopted. But Ro Laren? Hmmm, very questionable.

Why? The makeup of the modern British Army is about 7-8% non-UK nationals, some of whom aren't even Commonwealth citizens.

[Mikey]

Hmm. I knew of one non-Commonwealth-citizen who is/was an officer in the House cavalry, but that was through some arcane loophole relating to his partially-Canadian parentage or something.

[Captain Seafort]

Hmm. I knew of one non-Commonwealth-citizen who is/was an officer in the House cavalry, but that was through some arcane loophole relating to his partially-Canadian parentage or something.

I know of thousands of non-Commonwealth nationals in the army - they're best soldiers on the planet, by a very long way.

[McAvoy]

The US also has plenty of non US citizens in the military too. It's one the fastest (but perhaps not the easiest) way of getting citizenship. As far as I am concerned, if someone is willing to join the military to become a US citizen, then that's fine by me. Anyway, my boot camp division of around 80 had around 30-35 non-US citizans ranging from South America to Korea.